Author Topic: 'Pedigree Cockers'....Puppy Farm Question  (Read 6053 times)

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Offline julesph

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'Pedigree Cockers'....Puppy Farm Question
« on: July 11, 2009, 06:34:20 PM »
Well we now have two ex-Welsh puppy farm breeding dogs - Alice and Rufus. Quite frankly, they could almost be two different breeds.  Rufus has a typical domed cocker head and looks to me ( a non-expert ) more like your 'normal' pedigree cocker.  Alice looks like a little lion with a funny little beard and a ruff on top of her head.  Their shape and general confirmation is roughly similar if you don't look too carefully and they are both TINY compared to your average cocker.   They are also I might add, both completely gorgeous and much loved whatever they might look like compared to the breed standard!  :luv:

My question/observation is that are these puppy farm 'breeders' supposed to be producing pedigree pups?  Are they sold with papers?  Because if so then what on earth is going on?  Can anyone enlighten me on this? 

I am not a big fan of breeding dogs in any case  - I hate to hear that 'we just wanted her to have babies before we had her spayed' as I heard in the vets recently....aaaaargh!  BUT I am a realist and can certainly see that to keep a breed of dog in existence and genetically healthy VERY careful breeding is very necessary and I have nothing but respect for excellent, conscientious breeders who know what they are doing.

My suspicion is that Alice and Rufus and all of their progeny are probably the product of a genetically very suspect mating from close relatives and will end up with all of the problems that come with that.

Sorry if I sound like I am ranting - just that at times it really gets to me.  How DO they get away with it?  >:D


Offline ollie1

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Re: 'Pedigree Cockers'....Puppy Farm Question
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2009, 06:41:34 PM »
my cocker ollie is a pedigree and we do have the 5 gen certifficate to prove it .. we were told when we had him that he was show type only to find out when the papers arrived he's a half worker half show i really don't mind as i love him soooo  :luv: this is what ollie looks like he has a weird head shape to ...



I don't understand either how they can get away with things like (he's a show dog) when he's not !
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Offline mcphee

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Re: 'Pedigree Cockers'....Puppy Farm Question
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2009, 06:50:52 PM »
Alice and (what a great name, but I might be biased) Rufus sound great. I seem to recall that when investigations have been done on telly, no papers are ever available from these farms. On the same note, I have been hugely surprised how many free ads can't or don't mention KC pedigree papers, and how many say working cockers make fantastic family pets, without mentioning the energy levels and training issues. On the different looks, my Rufus ( long pedigree mostly working) and I now know lots of supposedly pedigree cockers (I do not know what breeders) and they all look different. I read somewhere that until the KC recognised the different spaniel types, they were named according to size. My vet said that most of the working strain dogs he has known over the years (he has just retired), probably had a mixture in their background, and that somewhere Rufus has Field because of his muzzle shape. I saw a cocker the other day, and I honestly would not have known it was one. I didn't say anything because people were so rude about Rufus, and I was so hurt, I did not want to repeat an insult. However, the size and other problems puppy farm dogs have seem to come from overbreeding and inadequate vet care. I still am at a loss to understand why people buy from them.

Offline Cob-Web

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Re: 'Pedigree Cockers'....Puppy Farm Question
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2009, 07:38:12 PM »
I still am at a loss to understand why people buy from them.

Convenience and/or ignorance  :-\

There are people who don't realise that a buying puppy farmed/commercially bred puppy is not only supporting a barbaric trade, but also setting themselves up for heartbreak and possible medical/behavioural problems.  :'(  I live in hope that one day, this will change - but worse still, there are people who KNOW the reasons why puppy farms and commercial breeders should be avoided, but buy from them anyway because it is more convenient than researching and finding a responsible breeder who is happy to sell them a puppy  :-\
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Offline Lily Freya

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Re: 'Pedigree Cockers'....Puppy Farm Question
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2009, 08:30:01 PM »
Ignorance in most cases..............I consider myself to be a fairly intelligent person...........but, I was fooled.  I was taken in by someone I considered to be a really good breeder.  The presentation was excellent, home wonderful...............we had no idea of what was going on behind the scenes.

I don't think you can condemn people for buying puppies from farmers.......novices are ignorant.  And, the pain they go through after the event is horrendous.

There should be better policing of these places.................I love dogs, and I hate to think this goes on.
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Offline ollie1

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Re: 'Pedigree Cockers'....Puppy Farm Question
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2009, 08:37:41 PM »
Ignorance in most cases..............I consider myself to be a fairly intelligent person...........but, I was fooled.  I was taken in by someone I considered to be a really good breeder.  The presentation was excellent, home wonderful...............we had no idea of what was going on behind the scenes.

I don't think you can condemn people for buying puppies from farmers.......novices are ignorant.  And, the pain they go through after the event is horrendous.

There should be better policing of these places.................I love dogs, and I hate to think this goes on.

I totally agree with you !
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Offline mcphee

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Re: 'Pedigree Cockers'....Puppy Farm Question
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2009, 08:39:16 PM »
Ignorance in most cases..............I consider myself to be a fairly intelligent person...........but, I was fooled.  I was taken in by someone I considered to be a really good breeder.  The presentation was excellent, home wonderful...............we had no idea of what was going on behind the scenes.

I don't think you can condemn people for buying puppies from farmers.......novices are ignorant.  And, the pain they go through after the event is horrendous.

There should be better policing of these places.................I love dogs, and I hate to think this goes on.
Good point. Some people are determined to con others, which makes them even more evil when they are dealing with helpless animals.

Offline Lily Freya

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Re: 'Pedigree Cockers'....Puppy Farm Question
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2009, 08:43:31 PM »
We bought two, after the loss of our first cocker............. we did lots of research, and involved the Kennel Club too............and still, we have had so much heartache..........now, and a couple of thousand pounds later.........both are well.  Thank God we had the spare pennies to do it.

I still don't know how I would avoid these people.....

What can we do if they are even Kennel club registered???
No longer in my arms, but forever in my heart, my girls at the Bridge, Lily and Freya. Xx

Offline mcphee

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Re: 'Pedigree Cockers'....Puppy Farm Question
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2009, 08:59:58 PM »
We bought two, after the loss of our first cocker............. we did lots of research, and involved the Kennel Club too............and still, we have had so much heartache..........now, and a couple of thousand pounds later.........both are well.  Thank God we had the spare pennies to do it.

I still don't know how I would avoid these people.....

What can we do if they are even Kennel club registered???

I do understand what you mean. It is not an easy path to tread. Although I have not finally decided about a puppy, I started some research because I must avoid the same mistake I made with Rufus in not understanding the hunting gene. I realise how the KC web site of genetically tested sires and dams works, and their list of accredited breeders (very few, and even fewer who admit to testing). I suppose we then need to do the research about the breeders. There are so many free ads, and I am now so suspicious even of the ones that show pictures. Some because they say working dogs make excellent pets, and others because they say nothing about the parents.
When I have decided, I think I will ask CoLers to PM me with suggested breeders to approach.

Offline Lily Freya

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Re: 'Pedigree Cockers'....Puppy Farm Question
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2009, 09:15:55 PM »
I think that is a brilliant idea.

We went to a breeder when we were still grieving.....and our hearts ruled our heads.  The dogs are absolutely wonderful, but the beginning was filled with anxiety... They had all the right credentials....and were kennel club registered....BUT!!!!

Anyway enough said.................

We live, and hopefully we learn.

We will love our boys, and they are in safe hands now.
No longer in my arms, but forever in my heart, my girls at the Bridge, Lily and Freya. Xx

Offline Helen

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Re: 'Pedigree Cockers'....Puppy Farm Question
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2009, 10:31:05 AM »

first step - never buy off a puppy selling website......
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Offline sassie

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Re: 'Pedigree Cockers'....Puppy Farm Question
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2009, 10:47:07 AM »
Totally agree with all of this; many years ago when we got our first cocker pup I had no clue that he came from a puppy farm.  We did visit to choose him and the farmer had a 'front' of their home, where we met the mum and the pups were in the utility room.  Then when we went to collect him two other cars drew up at the same time, one was collecting a westie and the other a springer spaniel!  Apparently further down the track were large barns where the other dogs were kept.

I stood there for a while thinking 'oh my god, I might have made a huge mistake here', but I did take him home and he was a little star.

I just didn't know anything about it all, and to my shame the pedigree papers didn't mean anything to me (in the way that I wouldn't have understood them anyway), there was no wide-spread internet and I just didn't do any research, TBH I wouldn't have known where to start.

These people take advantage of this and just have pound-signs in their eyes.

Offline mcphee

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Re: 'Pedigree Cockers'....Puppy Farm Question
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2009, 11:53:40 AM »

first step - never buy off a puppy selling website......

Does this include the KC page Livercake? I ask because although I new Rufus's breeder, as she worked in the unit I managed, she sold the rest of the litter the first day she advertised on the KC puppy page. Although she followed the KC accredited breeder procedures, I suppose she would be what I think CoLers call a BYB. Well meaning, diligent, kind and caring, but inexperienced, and unaware of the consequences of using a working sire. I was wondering as I did my research, just how many breeders not at the very top of the show world do do the tests and register the results, and what a scramble there is for the resulting puppies after show quality have been kept or sold to other breeding strains. This may apply to the working strain breeders, but I seemed to be able to find more information about the dogs available.

Offline Cob-Web

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Re: 'Pedigree Cockers'....Puppy Farm Question
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2009, 12:15:25 PM »
I suppose we then need to do the research about the breeders.

No suppose about it   ;)

I don't think it's as hard as it used to be, though; checking out if the breeder does health screening (DNA and annual screening tests) gives a really good indication of how committed they are, and even Googling the breeders affix can give clues as to the breeders motivation  :-\  The head really does have to rule the heart, though - it can be really hard to walk away from a cute puppy once you've seen it, and if the pup is in a bad situation, then it is tempting to "rescue" it, even though that only perpetuates the problem  :-\

It does take effort, and "novices" might need to learn more about the background to the breed before they buy and learn a bit about the ethics of breeding - but this is no different to the research that is done when people invest in a new camera or other piece of hi-tech equipment.  Sadly, most people I know have put more thought into the features on a new TV than they do buying a puppy  :-\
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Offline fifer

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Re: 'Pedigree Cockers'....Puppy Farm Question
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2009, 03:33:58 PM »
Convenience and/or ignorance  :-\

Agreed and also sadly everyone wants their puppy - NOW!!  So Puppy farms and BYB fourish because of impatience.
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