'Pedigree Cockers'....Puppy Farm Question

[Lily Freya]

What an insult.  I thought this Forum was about helping people, passing on advice and the benefit of expertise....not for being insulted and referred to as someone who might put more effort into buying a television than choosing a dog.  I am a 'novice' indeed, but I don't rush into things without a lot of thought.

I have been a dog owner for many years now, and I don't regard them as  household purchases at all.....(I can buy a television or camera any day...), and if I make a mistake then tough), our dogs, however,  are very much a part of our family.

For your information, my husband and I did lots of intensive research.......as I said, all the papers and credentials were in order............what we didn't realise was that the pups were churned out......the presentation was excellent.

As for taking a puppy because we felt sorry, and there was no turning around.....that didn't happen, they appeared well.  It was only later along the line that things came to light.

We could have gone to see many dogs advertised at £250 cheaper than ours...... but we felt this particular breeder was caring, was kennel club registered, and had a genuine interest in her dogs.

[julesph]

I may be speaking out of turn here but my impression is that the post was not aimed at you necessarily and that you should not be taking such offence.  My impression was that this was a general comment about the mass of people who do put little thought in to getting pup and will buy one from anywhere - you clearly did not do this, you were duped unfortunately by a hideously sly 'breeder'.  IMO, this is not really the same thing and I would wager than no offence was intended. 

[Cob-Web]

I may be speaking out of turn here but my impression is that the post was not aimed at you necessarily and that you should not be taking such offence.  My impression was that this was a general comment about the mass of people who do put little thought in to getting pup and will buy one from anywhere - you clearly did not do this, you were duped unfortunately by a hideously sly 'breeder'.  IMO, this is not really the same thing and I would wager than no offence was intended. 

Thanks Jules - as you rightly have assumed, my post was not in any way aimed any individual who has taken part in this particular discussion, and no offence was intended 

[mcphee]

Can I also say, as someone who made every single mistake possible as a first time owner, but who (apart from the working drive which I should have dealt with by field training) was very lucky (so far) with health, I was not at all insulted by the comments on this thread. I did not infer any intention to do anything other than assist me in my decision about a second cocker. Everything I have learnt makes absolute sense. Of course I might come up against a very unscrupulous breeder, who misrepresents litter frequency etc. It is only natural that on a forum for people who love cockers, should try to set the highest standards, and try and guard against such risk. The impatience point is so right. I should have stopped myself being so impulsive. I love Rufus to pieces, and wouldn't be without him, but it has been a stressful experience.

[Helen]

Can I also say, as someone who made every single mistake possible as a first time owner, but who (apart from the working drive which I should have dealt with by field training) was very lucky (so far) with health, I was not at all insulted by the comments on this thread. I did not infer any intention to do anything other than assist me in my decision about a second cocker. Everything I have learnt makes absolute sense. Of course I might come up against a very unscrupulous breeder, who misrepresents litter frequency etc. It is only natural that on a forum for people who love cockers, should try to set the highest standards, and try and guard against such risk. The impatience point is so right. I should have stopped myself being so impulsive. I love Rufus to pieces, and wouldn't be without him, but it has been a stressful experience.

Thing is that you can only go on what you're told and what you see (and shown in the case of health testing and other documents) - if I had bred that litter I would not have sold a highly bred working dog to an unsuspecting pet owner.  I certainly would have made sure that you knew what type of dog you would end up with and have  put you off TBH   Yes he is the most wonderful pet but you have to deal with the prey drive he's wired with too   

To me breeding a litter isn't just about health testing or the amount of red in the pedigree - some of the dogs that I see that are health tested I wouldn't want the progeny of, that's for sure!
It's about a total package - health, temperament, are they the 'style of dog I like looks wise, biddability and the environment that they're bought up in amongst other factors.  I know that large well known and very good kennels raise their pups outside but I prefer a breeder like Jarv's (and that could be perceived as a BYB in some eyes  ) that has the litter in the house and exposed to every day life from day 1.

[Cob-Web]

To me breeding a litter isn't just about health testing or the amount of red in the pedigree - some of the dogs that I see that are health tested I wouldn't want the progeny of, that's for sure!
It's about a total package - health, temperament, are they the 'style of dog I like looks wise, biddability and the environment that they're bought up in amongst other factors. 

I agree, but for a novice looking for a family pet, the fact that a breeder does all the relevant health checks/tests, and does not breed a range of different breeds, or sell large numbers of litters on the internet, is certainly a good way to start shortlisting imo 

Once these things have been established, then at least the buyer reduces the risk of speaking to an unscrupulous breeder who is convincing, and manages to dupe them into thinking that health screening is over-rated and not necessary, or that DL-Registration is perfectly adequate for a pet   

Testing and blue-blooded ancestry isn't a guarantee, but a bit of research in advance can save a buyer from "wasted" visits to view litters which have been bred with little or no consideration for their future health 

[Countrygirl]

When I got my first puppy it was for my fifth birthday (1961).  It was a poodle puppy called Toots who came from the then equivalent of the puppy farm outlets.  My mum rang them up, they put the puppy in a box on the train at Piccadilly station in Manchester and my sister walked to the local railway station to collect her.  Unless you knew someone who had a litter, that is what you did around here then.  She had 2 litters, not deliberately on our part, but because she fell in love with, luckily, a white poodle who lived up the road and who sired both her litter when we were not looking.  As far as I can remember my parents didn't have a clue about breeding, but they got through it.  The puppies were advertised for £5 in the Manchester Evening News and people came from quite a way for them.  My lingering memory of the puppies going was when a gentleman (seemed elderly to me at that age) came all the way from Manchester on the bus (quite a journey to our small village on the edge of the Peak District) with photographs of the dog he had just lost.  He so carefully placed that pupply on a towel in a shopping bag and set off on the journey home.  I will never forget the look on his face, total happiness.  Toots died of cancer when she was about 8 or 9 years old, but I don't remember her having very much wrong with her before that.

When I was 14 my best friend got a cocker spaniel puppy and I was hooked.  I pleaded for one, but to no avail.  Then my father died very suddenly 2 days before my 15th birthday.  To help me get over it my mum said I could have my golden cocker spaniel puppy I so craved.  We didn't think of doing anything differently than going back to the same place we got Toots from, except this time we went to collect Dylan.  I know I didn't know any diffently then, but the place seemed alright, just runs with different types of puppies in them, which I wasn't interested in because I only wanted my cocker.  Dylan was a fat puppy with a very wrinkled face, in fact my sister asked if they had another one I could have instead but luckily they didn't!  Dylan was a brilliant cocker, one of those dogs that didn't need a lead he just stayed with you.  Apart from having an ulcer removed from one of his eyes and a bit of an itchy skin which he took tablets for, he didn't have anything wrong with him until he died of parvo aged 11.  Apparently the tablets he took had interfered with the parvo part of his vaccinations.

When we collected Dylan, my sister (who was married) fell in love with a cairn puppy and brought one home.  When she took it to the vets for the first time he told her to take is straight back and he would give her a letter to get her money back.  She got half way and decided she couldn't do it so brought Dougal back home.  He cost her a fortune over his 10 years of life, apparently he was neither boy nor girl, his stomach used to blow up so much his little legs couldn't touch the floor, he was in nappies for the second half of his life, but was happy in his way and a real character.  Luck of the draw there then, my Dylan was fine, Dougal was probably a badly bred dog.

When Dylan died I desperately wanted another puppy, I don't know why we didn't go back to the puppy farm type place, but I remember there being a phone number in the local paper to ring for breeders of puppies.  My mum rang this and was given the number of somewhere is Staffordshire that had cocker puppies.  That is how we got Rumpole, a real independent stroppy cocker who I loved to bits.  I don't remember him ailing very much at all until he died of liver cancer aged 11, even then he lived 18 months after diagnosis which the vet couldn't believe.

I got married when Rumpole was 2 and as he was so attached to my mum, I was only moving a mile down the road and worked full time, he stayed at home, but I saw lots of him.  I really missed having my 'own' dog but I knew I couldn't move Rumpole and I worked full time.  When I went part time I became really broody for another cocker but it took me a few years to persuade OH.  When I finally did I just rang the place where we got Rumpole from and they had cocker puppies.  When we go there all the puppies were in a barn.  You could have had any colour of cocker puppy you wanted, they were virtually all there, as well as schnauzers, westies and cavalier puppies.  A blue roan puppy chose us, we asked to see the parent because that is what the book I had bought told you to.  They had to think for a while who the parent were but showed us two adult cockers from amongst all the others they had who all lived in kennels in another outbuilding.  At the time it never entered my head that it wasn't the right place to get a puppy from, I was so excited to be getting one.  Sophie was the best little cocker you could imagine.  Apart from being a bit nervous, which I put down to being attacked by a border collie the second time she was allowed out and never being socialised, because it wasn't something you did then.  You kept them out of sight until they were cleared after their vaccinations.
Sophie lived until she was 14 years old, still walking up to 7 miles at a time until 3 weeks before she died.

When I wanted another cocker puppy, I'll be honest, I rang the place where I got Sophie from but didn't get a puppy from them because they didn't dock the tails.  They said it was cruel.  So perhaps they were not that bad after all, they seemed to care about the puppies, and to be honest I never thought of them as a puppy farm place, but they were obviously not a hobby breeder who only has a litter now and again.  Anyway, I was more aware then and would not have got a puppy farmed puppy, but spent ages ringing around trying to find a reputable breeder with cocker puppies available.  About the 60th phone call I made (everyone I rang gave me another few numbers to ring) I rang a breeder who I would guess 95% of you on here will have heard of, but I an not going to identify.  Even though this was a very well know breeder with puppies on lots of pedigrees, it was the only place that did not ask me one question.  When I asked them if they had any cocker puppies, all they said was 'yes, we have 3 blue roans and they are £425.  When I asked if I could come and see them they said 'yes, they are ready to go now'.  Not one question about me at all and I honestly don't think they would have asked if I had gone, which I didn't because I didn't like the fact they didn't seem to be bothered where their puppies went.

We did go to look at some puppies who had been bred as everyone likes to think puppies are bred.  There were 2 litters, they had been born in the house and were extremely well looked after and the mums had lovely temperaments, very gentle cockers, and the puppies seemed very well socialised.  We chose one but were then told that they could not guarantee we could have that one.  When we asked why not, if it was taken why have you shown it us, they told us that how they do things was to speak to people over the phone, ask for a deposit of £100 to be sent and then when the puppies are 8 weeks old and ready to go, then the people come to see them and they choose which puppy then want in the order they sent their deposit cheques.  So they were quite happy for the puppies to go off with someone they had never seen.  There is no way I could have done that if they were my puppies.  We were not happy with this set up so left empty handed.

I eventually found a wonderful breeder who interogated me to the nth degree.  She wasn't happy with us initially because I work 3 mornings a week, but decided she would let us see the puppies when they were 5 weeks old and decide if she liked us.  Luckily she did and at 8 weeks old we brought Ellie home, a wonderful placid happy orange roan little girl with a fantastic temperament.  I can trust her with anyone.

What I am trying to say is, whilst I do not in any way whatsoever condone puppy farms and would only ever get a puppy from a breeder like Ellie's, I honestly think it is the luck of the draw wherever you get a puppy from.  I have had puppy farm type puppies which have been brilliant and enjoyed long lives, and I have known other people get puppies from good breeders but had problems with them or lost them early due to illness.  My next door neighbours got their springer from a well recommended breeder, ended up spending a fortune on dog behavourists/dog psychologists, you name it.  The poor dog had to be put to sleep at only 5 years of age, there was nothing anyone could do for its behaviour.
My friend at work has just lost her 14 year old dog, which never caused them a problem in all its life, and that came from Manchester Dogs Home.

I know some of you will come back to me to say that health testing can help forecast the outcome etc. and I know it can, I just don't want anyone who, like me, unknowingly bought a puppy farmed typed puppy and having joined this forum be worrying themselves silly that they have done the wrong thing.  Your puppy could be just perfect, like my Toots, Dylan, Rumpole and Sophie were.  Enjoy your  dog, just if you decide to get another one then look for a fantastic caring breeder like Ellie's breeder is.
 

 





  



 

[dog22]

not really read totally all of this so aplogies but think i get the jist and correct me if i havnt....but when i got Benji the previous owners said he was a pedigree but they couldnt supply the papers.they also gave me 'phone numbers 'of 4 different vets 2 of which didnt exist and 2 of which hadnt heard of Benji at all.Anyway whatever he was and wherever he came from(i had my suspisions he had been stolen for various reasons)he was my dog and wonderful and great and gentle.So whatever why worry.I also had a dog from a rescue before i had benji.she turned out to be 3 years older than what i was told.i called the kennel club and they said to take her back to the rescue as they had been dishonest.well that wasnt an option as the 'rescue' wasnt all that is was cracked up to be and as she was who she was and she was a great gentle dog and i didnt then care what age she was.if the dog is in need of a good home and it is what you want and all is well then just stick with it.sorry if i offend anyone.

[julesph]

Bit confused by your post country girl from the point of view that you seem to be mainly concerned about the health of puppies born to puppy farm breeders and whether they will turn out ok or not.

Is there not a greater moral issue here as to why we should not buy from these hideous people?  I have two reasons bouncing about in the kitchen right now - traumatised, disgustingly treated breeding dogs who are mere commoditites to the people who run these farms with minimal overheads and vast profits.

There are always many sides to any story.

[Nicola]

Is there not a greater moral issue here as to why we should not buy from these hideous people?  I have two reasons bouncing about in the kitchen right now - traumatised, disgustingly treated breeding dogs who are mere commoditites to the people who run these farms with minimal overheads and vast profits.

There are always many sides to any story.

I completely agree, if you get a dog from one of these places and you didn't know any better at the time then it's a fait accompli and you just have to hope you'll be one of the lucky ones and everything will be ok and sometimes it is and the dogs are fine but IMO that still does not mean that buying a puppy from places like this should be condoned or encouraged. It's easy to think that the dog you got is ok and has a happy life but it's not just about the puppies that are sold, in many ways they are the lucky ones. What about the poor dogs that produce those puppies and will never be as lucky as them to be taken out into a good home? They have to stay locked up in those dingy sheds and barns churning out more and more puppies, in all likelihood never seeing the light of day, and when they're worn out if they're very lucky they'll end up in a rescue but more than likely they'll be disposed of in the cheapest, quickest way possible, be that a knock to the head or a bullet.

[Lily Freya]

So how do we go about changing things?  I would be the first to fight for such changes.  No way should dogs live miserable existences like this.....

But, when you go to choose a puppy from a Kennel Club Recommended breeder, you feel that you have chosen someone who is regarded as professional.  Or at least I did.  Are these people actually visited before they become registered?  It is ok to have had all the eye and other health tests, but is the environment examined?  I don't know.

I keep hearing that people who buy from puppy farmers are condoning this way of producing dogs.......but, it isn't always the case is it?  Some of the people breeding in this way, do it in such a way, that the public are not aware entirely.

I don't believe anyone, who truly loves animals, would buy knowingly from someone who treats animals with no respect at all.

[sharonmansfield]

I would never buy a dog off a dog selling website, I have looked out of curiosity and found I could have any colour cocker I wanted, all wonderful photos of these lovely looking pups of varying ages it came to my attention that these dogs were all advertised with the same mobile phone number!!!
I did lots of research before getting my first girl, but then its in my nature to find out everything I can about something. I bought from a well established show kennel where both the breeder and I asked each other lots of questions, maybe some people who fail to get a dog from an established breeder because the breeder does not think them suitable then go down the puppy farm route. Is it also because some people are not prepared to wait. I would love to be able to help to stop this cruel trade.

[Jane S]

But, when you go to choose a puppy from a Kennel Club Recommended breeder, you feel that you have chosen someone who is regarded as professional.  Or at least I did.  Are these people actually visited before they become registered?  It is ok to have had all the eye and other health tests, but is the environment examined?  I don't know.

There isn't actually any such thing as a KC recommended or registered breeder - all that is basically required for KC registration of a litter is that both parents be KC registered. There is now the KC Accredited Breeder Scheme which requires certain minimum standards of breeders (including some health testing) but is purely voluntary - breeders do not have to join and indeed many choose not to for perfectly valid reasons (because they feel it is nowhere near tough enough) Moves are now apparently afoot to visit all Accredited Breeders but it hasn't happened yet so many on the list will not have been vetted prior to being accepted on the scheme. However there is evidence that they are now acting on complaints - a Cocker breeder with a poor reputation who was a member of the scheme has recently been removed from the list.

It's important to remember that KC registration never has been any guarantee of quality nor does it mean that a breeder is reputable - it's a starting point only and we're very careful to stress this in our How To Find A Reputable Breeder article. No it's not easy to decide who are the good guys and who are the bad guys when it comes to breeders but I do feel many puppy buyers have to take more responsibility for their actions & do much more research than some currently do (this is not aimed at anyone contributing to this thread but is a general observation). Yes some are taken in by very convincing people who pretend to be something they're not but on the other hand, some do know that they are buying from breeders who don't health test and are not considered as good breeders but they go ahead anyhow perhaps because they can't resist the pups having seen them or because they won't wait for a good breeder (some don't even consider things like health testing to be important as long as they like the breeder and the litter). There are no easy answers I'm afraid - all we can try to do is point people in the right direction and hope that sometimes, our advice is listened to.

[sassie]

Totally agree with all of this; many years ago when we got our first cocker pup I had no clue that he came from a puppy farm.  We did visit to choose him and the farmer had a 'front' of their home, where we met the mum and the pups were in the utility room.  Then when we went to collect him two other cars drew up at the same time, one was collecting a westie and the other a springer spaniel!  Apparently further down the track were large barns where the other dogs were kept.

I stood there for a while thinking 'oh my god, I might have made a huge mistake here', but I did take him home and he was a little star.

I just didn't know anything about it all, and to my shame the pedigree papers didn't mean anything to me (in the way that I wouldn't have understood them anyway), there was no wide-spread internet and I just didn't do any research, TBH I wouldn't have known where to start.

These people take advantage of this and just have pound-signs in their eyes.

Just wanted to add to this that I found this breeder off of the kennel club, and that they are still advertising on there, which I saw when searching for a new family cocker, in fact there were two litters being advertised at the same time albeit weeks apart, both cocker litters.

[PennyB]

Convenience and/or ignorance 

Agreed and also sadly everyone wants their puppy - NOW!!  So Puppy farms and BYB fourish because of impatience.

and even sadder is they sometimes blame rescues for turning them down for a pup/adult dog, which is why they buy in a pet shop or from a puppy farm/ dog dealer/BYB - often when the rescue feels they shouldn't have a dog in the 1st place