They could be sables but as there's only one sable stud dog in the country & it's not a recessive colour, it's a bit strange where the colour has come from and they don't really look like sables. On the other hand, I'm sure I remember reading about pups that looked this sort of brindle colour when young but when they got older, the two tone effect disappeared - wish I could remember where this was, probably on one of the Yahoo groups. There's definitely some particolour in the lines as one of the pups has a white muzzle :)
Jane
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Mum said something like this to me "Tiger striped" and it goes when there puppy coat comes out?
Mum said something like this to me "Tiger striped" and it goes when there puppy coat comes out?
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Yes that what I was thinking - the photos I remember looked exactly like these pups (think they might have been in Germany?)
Jane
Bearing in mind they are wet in some of the photos which will make the colour look darker, I think they are chocolate and tan. Maybe the shading is from being exposed to sunlight as I've seen chocolate dogs that look like they've been bleached but it's just from being out in the sun alot :D .
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theyre only 5 weeks old!
It's not a well known breeder, only her 2nd litter.
here is the pedigree. I've blocked out pups name and breeder. it might be a bit big, sorry if it is mods, and I'll try and resize it.
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Can't read all the names but can see well known solid & particolour affixes :) I think the most likely explanation is that this is "tiger striping" which will disappear once these pups are adults. I'm still trying to find the pics of similar puppies but not having much luck as it means going through 5 years of postings :lol:
Jane
"tiger striping" which will disappear once these pups are adults.
<_< how and why does this happy <_<
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No idea sorry. There are some genetic peculiarities which crop up from time to time which are still not understood - when you have so many different colour genes & modifiers acting with each other (as exist in Cockers) perhaps it is not so surprising that sometimes the unexpected happens :) There's no mention of "tiger striping" in Cockers in any genetics books I've come cross and all you can say for sure is that these pups are not true brindles in the genetic sense as the brindle gene is not known in Cockers (and anyway true brindles stay this colour all their lives). I'd guess they will all end up as black & tans when adult (with or without white markings) but time will tell :)
Jane
:D :D :D we think that they are sable.
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But sables aren't really stripey like these pups & there's no sable in the pedigree ;) Whatever, I wouldn't like to be the breeder choosing what colour to register this litter :lol:
Jane
Could anyone possibly pm me Pam Walkers contact details, It would be interesting to see what she has to say.
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I will PM you Pam's contact details & I'm sure she'll confirm these aren't sables. All the sables in Europe & Scandinavia descend from one line that can be traced back to just one dog exported to the US in the 60s or 70s. Sable in Cockers acts as a dominant gene not like a simple recessive that can stay hidden for generations & pop out so am pretty sure this pedigree does not have sable ;)
Jane
Apparently, there is some of Pam Walkers breeding in there somewhere, I'm to send her some pics, and a copy of the ped and she is interested in having a look. She said, sable can be thrown up anywhere depending on the lineage and the colours used, eg choc and orange roan, prob got the colour combination wrong, but she said is isnt impossible, and that they do sound like sable, or have a bit of sable going on. Might not be true sable in the true sense of the word, but still it is possible. Sometimes they dont come into full colour till they are as much as 2 years old.
She is showing 2 sable pups at Stonely Park on sunday, think I might have to have a little look.
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i don't think it matters about colour if you love yours then no problem.i think they are sooo beautiful i would love to have one too.
i don't think it matters about colour if you love yours then no problem.[snapback]143481[/snapback]
I don't think anyone is saying that there is a problem with the colour - it's just a really interesting subject :) What Pam W says is interesting too as if sable can crop up anytime with certain colour combinations, it seems strange that none have been registered in the UK apart from the recent litter by her imported sable dog. I wish one of the geneticists would update their books to include sable inheritance as there seems to be a lot of different opinions out there although most seem to agree that it is dominant ie a sable dog will produce sable pups to bitches that do not have the sable gene in their lines.
Jane
Yes, I know, She's gonna be gorrrrrrrrrgeous and she's gonna be called Daisy! :wub:
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B) Awww another Daisy ........my Daisy sends your little one a BIIIIGGG hug :wub: xxxxxxxx
I have never seen this striping before and have not heard of any pups from any of my litters producing this colour - surely a one off.
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As I said previously, I have seen this before, in a litter sired by a gold dog that is the sire of one of mine.
There was no "and tan" in these puppies, but the coat was identical, there was much hoo haa & excitement about it at the time - the dog was purchased by a show person, but as I mentioned the tiger striping disappeared when the puppy coat came out.
There's a lady registered on here a while back from europe with sables, anyone else remember her?
I am positive she had a website with pictures of sable puppies on :) .
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I thought so too Cayley; I seem to remember looking at some gorgeous pictures of her dogs on her website - I think she lives in Scandanavia?
Why were they handreared - what happened to Mum ?
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Lots of complications, ecampsia and a twit of a vet who spayed her while checking to see if any pups were left inside. Her milk dried up within a week, so they were hand reared.
There's a lady registered on here a while back from europe with sables, anyone else remember her?
I am positive she had a website with pictures of sable puppies on :) .
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I thought so too Cayley; I seem to remember looking at some gorgeous pictures of her dogs on her website - I think she lives in Scandanavia?
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Can it be me your'e looking for? My name is Ingrid lives in Sweden with a bunch of sables. Haven't been here for a while...
You can see a lot of sable at my home page http://www.mightyfalls.com (http://www.mightyfalls.com)
~Ingrid and the sables in Sweden
Anyway, this is my new little Daisy. Collecting her end of next week!!!!
I just cant wait!!!!!!!!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/karen1967/P8280009.jpg)
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Looking at this picture I would say it is not sable, this is what I would call "tiger striping" also seen in a litter in Poland two years ago. Those pups turned black when they get older.
Hi all,
just to update you all, we were right in saying that these puppies are sable. Pam said so.
so Karen will have a very unique little girl.
:D :D :D :D :D :D
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Will be very interesting to see if they are sable or not, but Pam should know as she has seen sables as small pups to adult. Pics I have seen of "tiger striped" looking like Daisy in Poland turned black as adults. The others having more red in the face I'm not sure about...
Pam owns a litter brother to my Aladdin shown above. Please keep us posted how the coat will change and we maybe will be able to learn something new.
As the first sable came from a mating with black & tan and white/orange everything colud be possible...even if we haven't seen it before.
:) Hi Mark i came with Sarah to the show to see you, hope your new little girl is doing well.
What is her name :)
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hi her name is shamu
hi all i have one of these puppies they are sable although they dont look like the usual sable colour the colour sable is defined by the fact that the hair shaft is of two colours which these are they are blake on the ends and chocolate at the base thet have black noses which would be brown if they were chocolate coloured. As had been said they don't have any sable colours in thier pedigree but neither did the first sable sold to an americian as a black and tan it just appears in the genes.
Mark
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Dear Mark,
I really don't understand what you mean with chocolate??
If it is a "ordinary" sable (looking like mine) it is red in the base and black on top of the back. If it is chocolate at the base they are liver sable.
~Ingrid
hi all i have one of these puppies they are sable although they dont look like the usual sable colour the colour sable is defined by the fact that the hair shaft is of two colours which these are they are blake on the ends and chocolate at the base thet have black noses which would be brown if they were chocolate coloured. As had been said they don't have any sable colours in thier pedigree but neither did the first sable sold to an americian as a black and tan it just appears in the genes.
Mark
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Dear Mark,
I really don't understand what you mean with chocolate??
If it is a "ordinary" sable (looking like mine) it is red in the base and black on top of the back. If it is chocolate at the base they are liver sable.
~Ingrid
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hi ingrid sorry its taken me so long to get back i would agree that they are chocolate sable or liver as you call it
Concerning the inheritance and genetics of the sable colour:
I have been puzzled by the inheritance of this pattern for some time and did not find answers enough when I searched the Internet. Therefore, I made a 'study' of all litters in Sweden with either:
* At least one sable parent
or
* At least one sable pup, no matter the colour of the parents.
................................
Anneli
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hi anneli
what colour would you say these dogs are they are chocolate at the base and black on the ends
most of thier pedigree is black and tan and they have some parti colour breeding in them
mark
To be sable, they must have some sable lineage. Most of it is traceable. Of course, there is a possibility that there are sable lines that have been hidden under black/blue etc for generations. But....? Well, I do believe that we know most of the lines. It is not likely that sable genes are hidden for generation.
Concerining the puppie - I think they are black and tans, mabye some of them have chocolate genes? Sometimes this can add a more rusty shade to a black coat.
But - Time Will Tell!
Anneli
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nice to hear your views only i dont believe its as simple as having to have a sable gene as the very first sable cocker never had those genes if these were black and tan with chocolate in them why is the hair shaft both black and chocolate? also the pedigree is mostley black and tan and as we know black is the dominante gene and chocolate is recessive which is not in thier lines