CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Activities => Other Activities => Topic started by: Cob-Web on November 27, 2006, 10:04:56 PM
-
I think this is an obedience question, and probably relates to all forms of training or work, but at present, I know that Molo's focus on me is not good enough to allow him to wait off-lead at the beginning of an agility run - and I'm not confident that he would remain focused all the way around ::)
How can I work on this with him between classes? I can get him to focus on me and heel off-lead when we are out walking (after he has had an off lead romp, not before) - but there are not as many dogs to distract him as there are in agility class......I'd really like some tips on how I can work towards the (almost embarassing) level of devotion shown by collies :005:
(http://imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/209214.gif)
-
Firstly - forget ever even considering that a spaniel will have anything like that kind of "devotion" that a collie has. I prefer to call it obsession but that's just me :lol:
Then you need to work on keeping Molo's head off the ground.......... :005: food is what I would suggest - something really high value, roast chicken, lamb, rabbit, cheese, sausage.... works for my spaniels ;)
-
Sausage..Practise...Sausage....Practise...and more Sausage!
Bettys getting pretty good at this now, although she does have her moments when I've put her in a stay, gone to run in to position, and there she is behind me :lol:
So I have to remember to keep saying 'sit' or what ever command you use while walking away, along with the hand signal.
I try and have a little practise when out on our walks, preferably in an empty field with no distractions. So I start with walking to heal off lead with a bit of sausage , and then I'll put in some sit and stays, while I walk away, a bit further and for longer each time.
Also, Im working on when I throw the ball for her but making her stay until I tell het to fetch
-
Firstly - forget ever even considering that a spaniel will have anything like that kind of "devotion" that a collie has. I prefer to call it obsession but that's just me :lol:
Then you need to work on keeping Molo's head off the ground.......... :005: food is what I would suggest - something really high value, roast chicken, lamb, rabbit, cheese, sausage.... works for my spaniels ;)
Penel I was going to say the very same thing! :005:
I think dogs that have the same "devotion/obsession" as Collies are very few and far between. So I'd give up aiming for that. ;)
Something to try to help with getting Molo to stay and wait at the start of the course is to do things like getting him to sit and wait while you go through a doorway, I've found the best one to use is one leading to outside, they desperately want to go out so it really tests their self control. Then call him to you, and get him to sit in front of you.
I've used food too, something high value as Penel suggested. I've seen people using the dogs favourite toy and running round with it in their left hand, when the dog has completed the course they throw the toy to the dog and have a quick game with it as a reward.
You already use clicker training and you could use that. I've seen people use clickers and click after each obsticle so the dog knows something good is coming at the end.
I've done agility with all of mine as part of their normal training classes. Obviously I'm not the best person to do it with them, as they'll never get the most of it with me doing it with them. Max has always seemed to love agility so we took him to Agility Club, with OH to handle him. Quite frankly it was a disaster. ph34r
Max would either run off and round the course doing the things he wanted, paying no attention to OH, or he'd run off to me and just sit in front of me and refuse to move. ::) Couldn't work that one out. OH was losing it, which didn't help as Max is very sensitive so didn't want to do anything with him. I left the arena to try and get Max to forget about me and work with OH but that didn't work. Jen, the trainer, said he was taking the p*ss ::) In the end the trainer did it with him and he did it reasonably but not as well as I knew he could.
After everyone went I decided to have a go with him to see what he did. He was great. He waited at the start while I got past the first jump, I told him "over" and he did, he followed all of my directions and he even waited for me to catch up with him if he'd finished something before I got past it.
So my point is, I do all the training here (OH keeps meaning to apparently ::) ) That training isn't agility, its obedience, trick training etc and because I do this with them they have a bond with me, and a respect, that they don't have for my OH. To them OH is a play object. ::) If you continue to do all the training with Molo that you are already doing, he will have that bond with you that will help at agility, IYSWIM. ;)
-
I think dogs can get really worked up and excited waiting for their turn either in scurries or suchlike (agility?) and they can start whining and get restless, my advice would be take your dog away to a quiet area to calm down and focus on you, in the gundog world the last thing you want is a noisy spaniel so you dont want him sitting by others who may be getting wound up and start whining one starts another kicks off its contagious and a bad habit to break. get some one to come and get you when its your turn. if you watch gundogs at work they are totally focused on their handlers as they equate the handlers with work, same with the working collie i'm the access to the sheep so the collie follows me .
-
It takes a lot of patience, and you have to be consistent.
To be honest I'm not completely sure what happened to make Storm switch from nose on the ground wandering round the ring i.e. her agenda, to recently being able to complete a full 'A' obedience round including about 3 minutes heelwork with no extra commands i.e. my agenda ;). I think a lot of it was her gaining her confidence, which I built up very slowly, her learning some self-discipline (which I think was a combination of her maturing, and me not allowing her to get away with anything anymore e.g. not anticipating exercises. It also involved a lot of practise, encouragement and a lot of treats... :005: If a dog finds an exercise hard make the reward huge :D
In fact, my cocker has far better attention and focus than my border collie. >:D .
-
Dunno if I know the answer that would help, but Ruby has excellent sit-stays so it was never a problem to leave her at the beginning of a run. I practised these since she was a pupster, everywhere I could with loads of distractions (including being circled closely by swallows one hot summer while she sat there), and in classes we practised the sit-stay every session working up to going out the building and leaving the dog there.
As far as focusing her throughout all I need to do is show her the treat in my hand at the start and she's so determined that she will have it that she does what I ask and only gets it at the end of the run. If the run involves weaves she will get something at the end of a weave. I have always managed to get her to focus this way with her working harder for some things than others --- have found the harder I make her work for a treat the more determined she becomes. For certain thing I was taught to focus the dog with the treat 1st so they knew what to aim for rather than just getting them to do stuff then show them the treat when you give it them.
-
I guess the only advice I could add is to start small and grow. Charlie is an amazing sniffer and had to learn that the treat came after work but to keep him listening and focused "work" started small - one/two jumps then praise and treats and I worked up adding obstacles and moves. Like PennyB the "boring" weaves took a treat at the end for a while but now Charlie will do a full course before heading off the follow his nose!!
(I don't think we have had one dog at club that at some time or another has not headed of in their own direction at training or at shows - it happens to us all at some point!)
-
It takes a lot of patience, and you have to be consistent.
To be honest I'm not completely sure what happened to make Storm switch from nose on the ground wandering round the ring i.e. her agenda, to recently being able to complete a full 'A' obedience round including about 3 minutes heelwork with no extra commands i.e. my agenda ;). I think a lot of it was her gaining her confidence, which I built up very slowly, her learning some self-discipline (which I think was a combination of her maturing, and me not allowing her to get away with anything anymore e.g. not anticipating exercises. It also involved a lot of practise, encouragement and a lot of treats... :005: If a dog finds an exercise hard make the reward huge :D
In fact, my cocker has far better attention and focus than my border collie. >:D .
My working cockers, with who I do most of my work have brilliant focus on me, cause I usualy have what they want.
Bribery I know, but on a thin schedule of reinforcement they gamble on me paying out every now and then.
I also think it really helps if you and your dog enjoy what you are doing together.
I have no attention problems from my boys, maybe it's because I'm interesting or something? I do try my best to be so.
Nothing quite like a dog and handler in the focus zone and when you get it from your dog it really makes you feel good and are doing something right.
-
my problem is that i can only train them indoors.once we get outside any training goes out the window.they are not interested in treats just whatever scent they can pick up.ellie will do anything for treats indoors but once we are outside i could have a big lump of cheese and she wouldn't want it ph34r same with paddy.even after 2 hours off lead.in fact they only listen to me outside when i recall them to put their leads on when it's time to go home.i even take them seperatly for walks during the day and this makes no difference.ellie has realised what she was born to do....she chases the birds who are already flying.her nose is rarely to the ground.it's stuck in the air looking for the birds :005:
-
I have no attention problems with Hattie at all, ever - but when I replied to IWLass's post I was talking from a show strain POV - because I have done agility with two show strain cockers as well, and keeping their heads off the ground was a 'mare :lol: Hattie is rather an obsessive character, and her obsession is with me if we are working :005: Tilly used to wander off and eat horse poo, perhaps have a little roll in it, and then come back to do a jump or two :lol:
-
but once we are outside i could have a big lump of cheese and she wouldn't want it
lyn this is common in working spaniels they are rewarding themselves by sniffing.
if yo want them to pay more attention to you you have to make yourself more in charge of what scents they get so they look to you to guide them. and subsequently are rewarded by finding the dummy whatever.. Ill pm you.
-
Rachel
you must have been reading my mind, I was thinking of posting something similar.
Uncle mark I am sending mocha up to you for his christmas holidays to work on focus, I am off to the post office now to get a jiffy bag for the boy!! I don't think he will wriggle much :005:
but once we are outside i could have a big lump of cheese and she wouldn't want it
lyn this is common in working spaniels they are rewarding themselves by sniffing.
if yo want them to pay more attention to you you have to make yourself more in charge of what scents they get so they look to you to guide them. and subsequently are rewarded by finding the dummy whatever.. Ill pm you.
I could be dressed as a gaint rabbit and I still don't think he would look at me!!!
-
I have no attention problems with Hattie at all, ever - but when I replied to IWLass's post I was talking from a show strain POV - because I have done agility with two show strain cockers as well, and keeping their heads off the ground was a 'mare :lol: Hattie is rather an obsessive character, and her obsession is with me if we are working :005: Tilly used to wander off and eat horse poo, perhaps have a little roll in it, and then come back to do a jump or two :lol:
Hamish was the same. All thse dogs sitting avidly watching their ownrs, and the Hamster casually stretching, licking his bits, nicking other treats that had fallen, oh th shame :005:
-
I have no attention problems with Hattie at all, ever - but when I replied to IWLass's post I was talking from a show strain POV - because I have done agility with two show strain cockers as well, and keeping their heads off the ground was a 'mare :lol: Hattie is rather an obsessive character, and her obsession is with me if we are working :005: Tilly used to wander off and eat horse poo, perhaps have a little roll in it, and then come back to do a jump or two :lol:
:005: :005:
Hamish was the same. All thse dogs sitting avidly watching their ownrs, and the Hamster casually stretching, licking his bits, nicking other treats that had fallen, oh th shame :005:
:005:
-
I was mortified though - he was like Kevin the teenager! :005: Monster dog! :luv:
-
I could be dressed as a gaint rabbit and I still don't think he would look at me!!!
[/quote]
:rofl1:
-
Bella gets extremely excited doing agility and hates sitting and waiting at the start - she does this "hmmMMMPH" whine every time, you can see her thinking "oh come ON! let's GO!" :lol: and it's taken me quite a while to get her to a point where she will actually stay where she is until I'm ready. Even then there are times where she creeps forward in little bounces until she's got her chest up against the first jump ::).
I realised early on that she'd need to learn to wait properly at the start as she was hopeless initially, just soooo excited about jumping (she's one of the dogs that barks their head off all the way round ::)) that she couldn't wait. Even now if I stop cos I've gone wrong, she'll carry on over 4 or 5 jumps and obstacles before stopping to see where I am :lol:. Having said that though, she does pay really close attention when I'm running with her and the only time she makes a wrong turn is if I get it wrong.
Anyway I taught her to wait initially under fairly calm conditions, eg put her in a sit, tell her to wait while I walk away and then call her really excitedly. I tried to distinguish between a wait and a stay, so if I'm doing a stay then she'll sit, stay, I walk away and then I walk back to her, i.e. "stay" means "stay here until I come back". "Wait" on the otherhand is "wait here until I tell you what to do next". I started using the wait command before she got her food (she already had to sit before getting it, I then started making her wait while it was on the floor in front of her for a couple of seconds). I also do offlead heelwork in the house where at any point I'll tell her to wait and will keep walking, so she stands still while I keep going - she's now very reliable at this in the house. I then took her to the park and found something small she could jump over, and each morning took her up there with the Chuckitt so she was quite excited, and got her to sit and wait by the jump, then threw the ball so that she had to go over the jump to get it. That seemed to be the clincher for her as after a week of doing that, she was much, much better at the start of the agility course.
In terms of focussing I've found with Bella although she naturally focusses very well, she works better if I've got her a bit excited, so on days when she's not got quite as much "go", I might need to do a bit of "come on, are you ready Bella? are you ready?" in a really excited voice to get her going. I usually show her a piece of sausage at the start of the course and she definitely knows that's what she's working for because literally the instant she lands over the last jump, she's in front of me staring at my pocket :lol:.
I think if you can get Molo to be really excited about agility then he'll have no problems focussing - I thought Bella would do the stopping and sniffing but she never has, once she's running she's completely into it and will even keep going if I stop, eg if she's missed a contact, I stop and she'll carry on over 3 jumps and the A frame (she has an amazing memory for the order of obstacles from the last round as well!). She seems to absolutely love it and she listens and watches very carefully. She does really pick up on my mood when I'm there though so if for some reason I'm not really that into it, she won't be either and she then won't pay as close attention and makes mistakes (as do I), so I think that's a major thing, you have to be as excited as you want them to be so that you're both really tuned into each other and this amazingly fun thing you're about to do together. :luv:
-
WooHoo!
Thank you so much for all your suggestions, they made such a HUGE difference :D :D
I worked really hard with Molo all week - making him wait at the back door to go out and come in, loads of waits and off-lead heelwork on walks and then I bit the bullet when we got to class this week and let him off lead :D
He was amazing (http://imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/209039.gif) He seemed to instinctively know what I wanted from him, and although he lost focus once or twice, it was no more so than many of the other ABC dogs (see, I'm learning all the terms :005:) ;) He happily completed a run with the promise a reward at the end - although he got a whole handful of sausage pieces when he performed a perfect weave on only his third attempt :D
He is no longer "the class beginner", although I certainly am ph34r - I really need to learn how to turn properly before next week ph34r ph34r
I was so chuffed when Kathy complimented us on the work we had obviously put in during the week........ ;)
Thank you again, everyone :D :D
-
I really need to learn how to turn properly before next week ph34r ph34r
that takes agggges :lol:
-
WooHoo!
Thank you so much for all your suggestions, they made such a HUGE difference :D :D
I worked really hard with Molo all week - making him wait at the back door to go out and come in, loads of waits and off-lead heelwork on walks and then I bit the bullet when we got to class this week and let him off lead :D
He was amazing (http://imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/209039.gif) He seemed to instinctively know what I wanted from him, and although he lost focus once or twice, it was no more so than many of the other ABC dogs (see, I'm learning all the terms :005:) ;) He happily completed a run with the promise a reward at the end - although he got a whole handful of sausage pieces when he performed a perfect weave on only his third attempt :D
He is no longer "the class beginner", although I certainly am ph34r - I really need to learn how to turn properly before next week ph34r ph34r
I was so chuffed when Kathy complimented us on the work we had obviously put in during the week........ ;)
Thank you again, everyone :D :D
Yay :D.
I think he's found what he's good at, sooner or later you'll be waking up at 5am to go to shows ;).
-
Yay :D.
I think he's found what he's good at, sooner or later you'll be waking up at 5am to go to shows ;).
Not sure about that - the cost of the ferry in addition to petrol makes it a VERY expensive hobby, especially in the summer ph34r
I would love to learn enough to do some displays at the local summer shows, though.... ;)
-
WooHoo!
He is no longer "the class beginner", although I certainly am ph34r - I really need to learn how to turn properly before next week ph34r ph34r
Congratulations --- I'm the big let down with my two ::)
-
WooHoo!
He was amazing (http://imagehost.biz/ims/pictes/209039.gif) He seemed to instinctively know what I wanted from him, and although he lost focus once or twice, it was no more so than many of the other ABC dogs (see, I'm learning all the terms :005:) ;) He happily completed a run with the promise a reward at the end - although he got a whole handful of sausage pieces when he performed a perfect weave on only his third attempt :D
Yeay! I am so pleased that all your hard work paid off. Molo clearly is a very smart boy to learn so quickly. Hope things continue to go well for you both. Do you have obstacle courses at your local shows? Occassionally we do...clear round type ones, especially when there has been an agility display at the event.