Half show - Half working Cocker

[Payneyg]

When we decided on a cocker spaniel pup, we did not have a clue about working or show types.  We ended up with a half working and half show puppy.  She is now 20 months old and is a tricolour of chocolate, tan & white and her temprement is amazing.  She is the most wonderful dog we have ever had.  She likes to sniff about when she is out but does not stray very far from us, but indoors she likes to play, sleep, cuddle or just watch us.  She is inteligent and loves kids and other dogs and she sleeps all night long and does not give us a moments grief.  Also, she is very beautiful.  However she does not meet the breeds standard and she requires very little grooming apart from her ears and feathers.  She is a pet.
Therefore I am a little confused as to why so many people are against mixing the 2 types, as I think she looks better than the average show cocker and is not as crazy as the average working cocker.  I have never wanted to show her, so not meeting the breed standard will never be an issue for me.

However, I am thinking of breeding her because of her temprement and health but am not sure whether to breed her with another half show/half working or a full show or full working.

Any ideas anyone please.

[emma_and_tilly]

I do see where you're coming from, but I think most people would advise against breeding. It sounds like your pup is lovely, and you are very lucky, she could so easily have ended up with the drive of a worker and the coat of a show! If I were you I'd just enjoy her

[Holly2009]

I dont think working breeders or show breeders would advise mixing the two 

[Jane57]

When we decided on a cocker spaniel pup, we did not have a clue about working or show types.  We ended up with a half working and half show puppy.  She is now 20 months old and is a tricolour of chocolate, tan & white and her temprement is amazing.  She is the most wonderful dog we have ever had.  She likes to sniff about when she is out but does not stray very far from us, but indoors she likes to play, sleep, cuddle or just watch us.  She is inteligent and loves kids and other dogs and she sleeps all night long and does not give us a moments grief.  Also, she is very beautiful.  However she does not meet the breeds standard and she requires very little grooming apart from her ears and feathers.  She is a pet.
Therefore I am a little confused as to why so many people are against mixing the 2 types, as I think she looks better than the average show cocker and is not as crazy as the average working cocker.  I have never wanted to show her, so not meeting the breed standard will never be an issue for me.

However, I am thinking of breeding her because of her temprement and health but am not sure whether to breed her with another half show/half working or a full show or full working.

Any ideas anyone please.

I think the average show owner and the average worker owner might just have their own opinion on this too 

[Karma]

The 2 types evolved for very different needs/purposes.... and one example of a "nice" dog does not make it a great idea.
Honey is 3/4 working - her Mum is half-and-half.... and she is a lovely dog, looked very much like a show line (we didn't know we were getting a mix), very friendly and content. 
Honey is a difficult dog.  She is very highly strung and you need to be 3 steps ahead of her at all times.  Some of this is due to some poor experiences as an adolescent pup, some is down to our errors as novice dog owners, but a lot is her personality - many dogs who had experienced the same minor mistakes and the same bad experiences would not have ended up with as complicated a personality as she has. 
She also has a really difficult coat to manage - up until I had children, I kept it long, but it required a LOT of grooming, and now I have to cut it short, as I don't have time to comb and detangle - and even then it matts very easily.  I can't clip her as she remains terrified of anything that makes that kind of noise, despite months of desensitisation, and I can't take her to a groomers as she would not trust them a second time...
I'm sure the person who bred Honey had a similar view to you - her pet Cocker(s - she had 2) were lovely dogs and made lovely pets.  But without confidence in how the genetics can play out, you cannot be sure that the pups you might breed would inherit these characteristics.
Of course, there are uncertainties with any breeding pair - but that is why good breeders will carefully research their lines and ensure that, if either the bitch or sire had not had pups before, the other would be well proven. 

I am eternally grateful to Honey's breeder for providing us with our brilliant pup - and I wouldn't be without Honey.  But it was a litter of puppies that should never have been produced... 

[elaine.e]

Hello and welcome to COL . Your girl sounds delightful and the ideal family pet, but if you're thinking about breeding from her there are lots of things to consider.

Do you know if either of her parents were health tested in any way? Responsible breeders have their breeding stock DNA tested for Familial Nephropathy (FN) which is a hereditary kidney condition that kills, and Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA), an eye condition that leads to blindness. If you don't know about the testing status of your bitch's sire and dam it's unlikely that they were tested and you'll have no idea of your girl's status until you have her tested. There are other health tests too, such as hip scoring.

How would you select a suitable stud dog? Most breeders of either show or working types don't cross the two so it could be difficult to find a breeder willing to use their stud dog on a show/worker cross.

If you decide to go ahead you'll need to be aware that pregnancies and births aren't always straightforward. You could have expensive vet bills to pay (which won't be covered by insurance) and, worst case scenario, end up with orphan pups to be hand reared or no pups at all.

If everything goes well you will need to find good homes for the pups and that's not easy nowadays. Many breeders find themselves left with unsold pups.

These are just a few of the things to think of. I'm sure that some of the experienced breeders on here will have more things to point out. In the meantime, please have a read of the "stickies" at the top of this board to get more information about the pros and cons of breeding.

[vixen]

I would think very carefully before going ahead.  Breeding dogs is not without risk to the bitch and it can be a very expensive.  There are already a surplus of dogs needing homes and you would just be adding to the canine population.
I know how you feel when you have a lovely dog, you just want to duplicate it - I did when my two girls were younger.  They come from a very good line of working cockers and I was tempted    If I could have guaranteed that each bitch would have had one pup, I 'may' have gone ahead but that is unlikely.  I would be faced with finding good homes for maybe 10 plus babies. I looked around and saw all the dogs that are needing homes and realized that every single day healthy dogs with good temperaments are being PTS, and I decided against breeding my girls.  If at a later day I want a similarly bred dog, I will go back to their breeder.
You may be faced with more problems trying to find homes for show/work pups.  A working home would be unlikely to want them and someone wanting a show type may be reluctant to take on half a worker.
You seem to you have the best of the two types but someone else could have her litter mates who are absolute nightmares    

[KellyT]

Therefore I am a little confused as to why so many people are against mixing the 2 types, as I think she looks better than the average show cocker and is not as crazy as the average working cocker.

because you are very lucky in the result you have from that breeding, however you can never been sure what 'type' you may end up with.

You may end up with a dog with the drive of a worker and the coat of the show, which would be a nightmare for most pet owners (slightly crazy, with a nightmare coat to keep tidy and clean), not suitable for working homes (again because of the coat) and couldn't be shown by people pursuing a show path, since it's a mix.

That's not to say that it's a bad or wrong idea, just that the 2 lines have been selectively bred for different reasons, and mixing the 2 could produce pups which would struggle to find suitable homes.

In terms of breeding your girl  there are many ups and many downs.  The fact that your girl has a lovely temperament is no reason to breed in my opinion - my 3 have lovely temperaments but I wouldn't breed from them because I couldn't bare the heart ache of losing any of my girls due to complications, or any little pups.  
It's also very expensive, and time consuming - I wouldn't be able to take the time off work to be with the new born pups and mum for 8 weeks prior to them finding new homes.  
What if I couldn't find them homes?!!   I may end up with 10 dogs!  What if one of the pups had to come back to me because the family couldn't have it anymore?  

Some people say 'oh it's cruel not to let a bitch have at least 1 litter' - rubbish, there are no health benefits to your bitch in having a litter, i fact she's far better off health wise not having one probably!

These are just some of the reasons I couldn't put myself, nor my girls through having a litter. It's unnecessary in my opinion.

You should read 'the book of the bitch' to help you understand your girl's cycles and what to expect in terms of the pregnancy.

My advice is don't do it; but good luck what ever you decide

[lynmumtosam]

I too have a half worker /half show cocker  she also has a fantastic temperament she is solid black and depending on the time of year and grooming could easily be said to favour either one in her looks
She was actually taken on at 15 weeks after my son offered to buy her or report previous owner for neglect (long story)
She was given to him with papers as a pure breed show when I looked at them     I became suspicious as the papers said male after lots of investigation we found out that she was fromm a friend of the previous owner and was not sold as pure breed the papers were actually For her father .
Anyway to cut a long story short we were then contacted by a frantic breeder who had heard of the pups abuse and had been given our number when trying to reclaim said pup.
After reassuring the very lovely lady that Sam was safe and much loved by sending lots of photos and updates on health I then found out her half and half history which was a one off that the Lady was not going to allow to happen again.
Would not swap Sam for the world but agree dont breed just because they are lovely making sure that they all have loving homes is big responsibility

[Payneyg]

Thank you all very much for your replies, you have given me a lot to think about. 

When I wrote the word average, I did not mean to insult anyone and I'm sorry if I did, but I did not want to use the word normal either, so by average, I meant and should have written standard. 

While I am here, can anyone tell me why when I see show cockers, they all appear to be different, for example different shapes, different coats, different sizes ect.

[Ninasmum]

I've been dithering about wether to post or not but just thought it might be worth putting my thoughts/experience's here.....
Jo Jo my eldest girl had 2 litters of puppies.....she is 'almost' a full show cocker exc. for 5 gen's back has a worker in her pedigree.  I asked for advice about breeding her from a very experienced show person & one of her stud dog's eventually sired her 1st litter of puppies.  All went well, it was a 'text book' birth of 9 adorable puppies BUT the time, commitment, emotional ups & down's, love & care for mum & puppies does take over your life & thats without finding the perfect home for all the puppies.  You never stop worrying about them.    On the second litter we lost a little girl at 5 days old    i can't put into words how devastating that was, to the point i decided i would never, ever breed again. 

We kept Nina, our much loved 5.5 yr old blk/wht girl from the 1st litter & despite both parents having clear health tests for prcd-PRA, FN & BVA/KC eye tests, she went onto develop GPRA last year.  The eye specialist believes she will be totally blind by spring time this year.    The total devastating effect it has had on her & the utter helplessness/sadness of her situation stays with us. 

The reason i am writing this is not to say if its right or wrong to breed from your girl but just to say i felt the same as you about Jo Jo (& still do) but in hindsight its not a good enough reason to breed. 

[elaine.e]

Thank you all very much for your replies, you have given me a lot to think about. 

When I wrote the word average, I did not mean to insult anyone and I'm sorry if I did, but I did not want to use the word normal either, so by average, I meant and should have written standard. 

While I am here, can anyone tell me why when I see show cockers, they all appear to be different, for example different shapes, different coats, different sizes ect.

I don't think anyone has been insulted by your use of the word average

Show type Cockers tend to be much of a size when fully grown, with dogs generally a bit taller than bitches. They should all be a similar shape if they've been bred with the breed standard in mind and from parents that conform to the standard, but different coats are common in the sense that most pet owners don't keep their show types in full show coat. So you will see anything from fully clipped with no feathering at all through to rarely groomed and looking something like a yeti . the differences in the way their coats are managed and groomed can make them look different shapes and sizes.

[Emilyoliver]

As the second most popular registered dog breed in the UK, there are many bred that are do not conform to the standard. Unless breeders are specifically breeding for a 'type', a wide variety of shapes and sizes can result from a random mating of 2 cockers. The same applies to working cockers, where there is variety in terms of conformation as they are primarily bred for function (rather than appearance).  You will see less variety in appearance between show types if you go to a champ breed show, where the dogs are judged against the standard.

[Cockertime Blues]

HI and welcome to COL.  We too have a working/show x.  We adopted her last March when she was 2-1/2 years old.  She was bred and trained for Hearing Dogs but failed her finals, was subsequently rehomed but returned to Hearing Dogs after 6 months, and so we're her second shot as a rehome.  We love her to bits.  She has the prey drive of a worker (recall can still be a problem) and the coat of a show (clipped 4 or 5 times a year).

While I am here, can anyone tell me why when I see show cockers, they all appear to be different, for example different shapes, different coats, different sizes ect.

Unless you have a dog from a very established and reliable breeder I think there's as many different types of cocker as there are dogs.  (But I know nothing about breeding).

Please read the sticky on COL about breeding.  You can do everything you're supposed to, and still lose your lovely pet and all the pups (as happened to an acquaintace of mine recently).  And with the best will in the world, so many poor cockers and springers end up in rescue - they are not dogs that suit every lifestyle - they're special needs I'd say.

[praia]

While I am here, can anyone tell me why when I see show cockers, they all appear to be different, for example different shapes, different coats, different sizes ect.

The same can be asked of working cockers and worker/show cockers.  When you aren't breeding to a specific standard, then the dogs you produce are going to vary greatly.  Being that show Cockers are so popular, they are a lot of pet bred dogs whose breeders didn't breed to conform to the standard.  Most working Cocker breeders don't care for breeding for type either, which is why there are quite a few working Cockers that bear little resemblance to a Cocker Spaniel at all.  Obviously worker/show cockers are from pet stock, but mixing the two types can make guessing what traits the puppies will inherit near impossible. You were very lucky that you got a mix of the types that suits your lifestyle perfectly.  For some unlucky owners of worker/show Cockers they ended up with the traits they can't handle such as the drive, the energy, and the hair.  A lot of people are against the intentional breeding of worker/show Cockers, because they are pet bred (the pet market is already over-saturated) and because there is no guarantee of what traits these dogs will inherit.

As for breeding your dog, having a good temperament just isn't enough reason.  There are many dogs that have an excellent stable temperament and they still aren't worthy of being bred, because of other issues.  As for your dog being healthy, do you know her pedigree and what health clearances and genetic tests her sire and dam have had?  I hope you realize that most genetic diseases do not reveal themselves in a dog until a dog is older than 20 months.  For some, you don't even notice the symptoms until a dog is 5-6 years old. Honestly, the only dogs that are worthy of being bred are the most excellent examples of the breed. 

Besides the question of whether your dog is even worthy of being bred, you should consider the financial strain and emotional strain.  There are many complications that may arise during the pregnancy or during delivery, which could cost the you lots of money or even the life of the puppies or your dog.