Author Topic: Help with stay  (Read 4041 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sarah.H

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3848
  • Gender: Female
  • charlie
Help with stay
« on: February 21, 2007, 01:10:14 PM »
Does anyone have any tips for getting Charlie to stay.  We have his bronze award next week and we just can't get the one minute stay  :'( :'(.  He is fine at home (we can leave the room and come back) and out in the field but only if there's no dogs about.  At the training classes he is a wriggly barking lunatic, just constantly trying to play with the other dogs, but as soon as we do some work he is a litlle star.  Right from the beggining he was excellent and is often more obediant than the more experienced dogs  :shades:.  But we just can't get him to stay and its gradually getting worse, he will stay for a little while barking his head off, or he will kind of wander in my direction looking a bit pre-occupied.  It's getting harder to get him to wait for the novice retrieve as well and he used to be spot on.  I think a lot of it might stem from his near obsession with other dogs making him stressed out.

Any help would be gratefully recieved!

Millie

Offline sportsmonki

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1166
  • Gender: Female
  • Storm
Re: Help with stay
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2007, 11:49:50 PM »
I would suggest going right back to basics with him, with tiny distractions (e.g. throw a toy around whilst he is in a stay, practise stays early in the morning in your local park, or a supermarket car park).  Reward him frequently, and try to get the reward in before he breaks the stay.  Also, dont allow him to keep making mistakes, as they will become habit?  Gradually build up the intensity of distraction.  I dont ask my dogs to stay when there are lots of distractions until I am certain they will be able to cope, to try to minimise the chances they will break).  Practise in as many different locations as you can so that he generalises the behaviour (stay) to all situations and not just at home? 

I wonder whether he is a bit anxious?  And that is why he is barking (out of anxiety) and coming towards you?  Dont go too far from him, and reward him often to build up his confidence in the training hall. 

You could also work on keeping his focus on you.  So when he is in the stay he will watch you rather than the other dogs.  Jump around, throw toys, make stupid noises, etc when he is in the stay and he will start to watch you more to see what silly thing you will do next  ;)  That will also strengthen his stay.

Just out of interest are you using the same command for the wait on the recall and for the stay?  If you do use the same word he might be getting confused? 

Good Luck.  Stay problems are really difficult to sort, but if you are patient you will get there with him  :blink: .

Offline Top Barks

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5234
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.topbarks.co.uk
Re: Help with stay
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2007, 01:17:14 PM »
Can you put food in front of him and get him to leave it?
Gradually move the food to be left further and further away having first built up duration with the food in front of Charlie

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Penel

  • Guest
Re: Help with stay
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2007, 03:01:42 PM »
Can you put food in front of him and get him to leave it?
Gradually move the food to be left further and further away having first built up duration with the food in front of Charlie

interesting method Mark (seriously, am not being sarky !) but isn't that a LEAVE rather than a STAY ?

are you stepping sideways away from him, rather than walking away in front of him - I have found that can make a big difference.  And little by little - baby steps remember - if you aren't ready to do the test then don't - tis no big deal !!!

Offline cazza

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7245
Re: Help with stay
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2007, 03:44:57 PM »
Can you put food in front of him and get him to leave it?
Gradually move the food to be left further and further away having first built up duration with the food in front of Charlie

I put Fern in a stay and put her food down and she watches me until I give the command.

 ph34r the other day she sat for 5 whole minutes before I realised I hadn't let her have it cos the phone rang  ph34r She was still sat just waiting for me to give the command  :angel:  I've never felt so bad  ph34r

Offline Sarah.H

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3848
  • Gender: Female
  • charlie
Re: Help with stay
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2007, 09:11:06 AM »

interesting method Mark (seriously, am not being sarky !) but isn't that a LEAVE rather than a STAY ?

are you stepping sideways away from him, rather than walking away in front of him - I have found that can make a big difference.  And little by little - baby steps remember - if you aren't ready to do the test then don't - tis no big deal !!!

I'll try this on our walk today, I had a chat with the trainer last week and we can do the stay first so if he breaks it we can use the rest of the test as practice  ;).

I think there might be a reason why he's gradually been getting worse though, one of the trainers dogs was very flirty with Charlie, she was actually standing for him with her tail over to one side.  The trainer thought it was odd and said it had been three weeks from her season, but now one of her other dogs is in season (kept at home).  Could the smell have been on the other dogs these last few weeks distracting him, he's coming up to ten months old?  He does look very distracted and vague at times, almost how he looks when he needs a poo  ph34r :005:

Millie

Offline Top Barks

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5234
  • Gender: Male
    • http://www.topbarks.co.uk
Re: Help with stay
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2007, 05:24:57 PM »
Can you put food in front of him and get him to leave it?
Gradually move the food to be left further and further away having first built up duration with the food in front of Charlie

interesting method Mark (seriously, am not being sarky !) but isn't that a LEAVE rather than a STAY ?

are you stepping sideways away from him, rather than walking away in front of him - I have found that can make a big difference.  And little by little - baby steps remember - if you aren't ready to do the test then don't - tis no big deal !!!
Agree with you Penel last thing to worry about is a test! As for the method then technically it is a leave but it is the way i do it it also a stay.
I have the boys wait for their food anyway as it helps teach them some self control.  if they get up for the food then the food gets lifted up.
I just move further and further away having built duration and fade the food so the act of me bending down in front of the dog to place imaginary food on the floor becomes the cue. I thought I could use this method for a stay and it worked a treat.
I got 3 minutes with one minute out of sight with other people and other dogs around from Baylo the whirlwind at college last week which for a dog who didn't sit still for 3 seconds when I got him was a major triumph.

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline sportsmonki

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1166
  • Gender: Female
  • Storm
Re: Help with stay
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2007, 06:42:57 PM »
Good News that you can do the stay first and if he breaks use the rest of the test as practise. 

I do know a couple of dogs that had stay problems that were then retaught in the way Mark described and are now pretty solid stay dogs, so I can confirm that for some dogs it does work.

Offline JaneES

  • Site Member
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 238
  • Gender: Female
Re: Help with stay
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2007, 10:39:15 PM »
We cracked it tonight with the sit stay command with Frankie, I used his send away mat (car mat) and he sat on that, cos he slides into a down every time!   Then I even left the hall for the first time and he stayed in his down command, god I was so proud of him!!
Jane (owned by Charlie, Frankie,Jaymae & Callum)

Offline sportsmonki

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1166
  • Gender: Female
  • Storm
Re: Help with stay
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2007, 03:38:45 PM »
Congratulations Jane and Frankie!    :angel:

Offline Sarah.H

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3848
  • Gender: Female
  • charlie
Re: Help with stay
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2007, 07:00:57 PM »
We cracked it tonight with the sit stay command with Frankie, I used his send away mat (car mat) and he sat on that, cos he slides into a down every time!   Then I even left the hall for the first time and he stayed in his down command, god I was so proud of him!!

Well done   :D

We managed four perfect stays in the park yesterday, two for 30 seconds and two for 1 minute and there was other dogs and everything  :005:
Charlie does have really good food manners and is very greedy so I made sure he could see I had something tasty and kept his attention on it, it worked so well. 

Can you put food in front of him and get him to leave it?
Gradually move the food to be left further and further away having first built up duration with the food in front of Charlie

Now I know I'm being stupid but you do pick the food up and walk back to the dog rather than giving a release command (thats how we've covered food manners at classes),  I really wish I'd asked for advice earlier so we could have been ready for thursday   >:(, you can't use food rewards in the test and I don't want to risk taking too big a step and messing up his training  :-\

Millie

Offline sportsmonki

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1166
  • Gender: Female
  • Storm
Re: Help with stay
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2007, 08:45:29 PM »
If you managed 4x perfect stays in the park, maybe just stick with the method you are using as it seems to be working for charlie?

I'd be inclined to pick the food up and give it him, and most people I know that use the food on the floor method do the same, but some release and let the dog get the food for himself.  I think it depends on the dog really? 

Some dogs find it too hard to resist the temptation of taking the food for themselves, especially if you are out of sight.  A group of my friends were practising using this method.  The handlers went out of sight.  Whilst they were out of sight one of the dogs got up, ate her sweetie, and then proceeded to eat the sweeties of all the other dogs!  She then went and sat back when she had originally been positioned with a face like butter wouldnt melt and waited for her handler to return  :005: cheeky monkey  :005:

Offline mentalcat

  • Site Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
Re: Help with stay
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2007, 11:28:17 PM »
Hello all,

Is this a sit stay or a down? I've taught mine using 2 methods.

1) I taught one of my labs to 'mark it' which means watch (usually food or a ball with labs!!). I would then give the positions and stay command eg. sit - stay, or down-stay. I then took a small step to the side before leaving. This 're-inforces' the dog that you don't want it to go with you. I always step off with my right foot for stays and my left for heelwork. Place the 'mark' item on the floor just enough infront that the dog would have to break position in order to get it. Always take the food back to the dog and stand for a short while BEFORE releasing it, or the dog will anticipate your return.  Start really short times and distances and work your way up - i vary the time and the distance. (It is harder for some dogs to do a stay with you closer, but for a longer time, than it is for some dogs to do a shorter stay with you further away) - I hope that makes sense :005:
 - It is harder IMHO to teach a sit stay this way as the dog's natural position is to lie down to watch the 'mark'

2) I trained a dog that really didn't like the stay and we tried it this way - The dog was a bit worried about being on his own, but  would happily stay next to something that belonged to the owner - We used a large rucksack at first - Using a weaving pole put in the ground behind the dog, we put his lead over the top of it, and then put the bag next to him. He did a short stay and gradually we used smaller and smaller bags until he was happy on his own.

I find the two most important things to remember, is generally not to look into the dogs eyes (Unless its a very anxious dog and needs the re-assurance)  - this is often taken by the dog as a sign that you want him to get up and come running up to you spraying you with as much mud as is caninely possible!! of maybe thats just my lot.
The second thing is that when you get back to your dog, don't go raving bonkers as start jumping up and down praising him. I don't mean that you can't praise him at all, but end the exercise quietly, mine all roll over for a belly rub from the down stay!, turn and walk a few paces before going nuts! This helps to keep the dog in the stay position when you walk up to him rather than hopping up and down and saying 'mum, mum, look what i did, aren't i clever!!.

I've used these methods with all of mine for working trials  - the sit stay is for 5 minutes with the handler out of sight and the down is for 10 minutes with the handler out of sight,  either on their own, or more likely in a line-up with other dogs (The most number i was ever with was 28 dogs - quite a sight :o)

Good luck all, Ali :D



Offline sportsmonki

  • Site Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1166
  • Gender: Female
  • Storm
Re: Help with stay
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2007, 11:45:08 PM »
I thought that for CD sit stay was 2 minutes, and for UD (and the higher stakes, but jumps would be too much for a cocker) there was no sit stay?  Maybe I am mis-informed?  When does the duration of the sit stay go up to 5 minutes?

Offline mentalcat

  • Site Member
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
Re: Help with stay
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2007, 09:43:00 AM »
My mistake - shows how long ago i did a CD. :005:
Yes, the Sit is only in CD/CDex and although it is only 2 minutes, that seems like a lifetime :005:

As far as jumps go, it is a shame that the smaller dogs can't go any higher than UDex, i found that the long jump was the impossible one, Tizzy's legs just don't stretch that far !

Mine have never really found the scale a problem, but i always taught it as a fun thing - my problem was trying to keep them off it!

My Labs both retired a while ago from trials and trying to train a working cocker for it is very hard ;) (It's not the finding of articles thats the problem, its the bringing it back!!)

Tizzy does love her tracking though - she does tend to go off trying to track the wildlife, but ho hum, at least it's exercise!!

Ali