I went to a really interesting seminar today.

[bluegirl]

I think this just proves as I've always believed that a dog doesn't need positive only training to change a behaviour.
I have done this myself but if I'd have voiced it on here it would have been wrong to some of you. Now it's ok because a behaviourist said so with a masters degree.

[Jane S]

Please can we keep this discussion friendly - it's good to discuss different methods but please no sarcastic comments as this just makes threads degenerate and everybody loses out then.

Thanks

[LurcherGirl]

What happens if the dog doesn't offer a non aggressive behaviour? How long do you subject the dog to the "nasty " thing. eg if Billy really dislikes labs, I subject him to the lab and he goes bollistc lunging growling etc, if he doesn't stop and offer anything other than this what do I do? How long do I keep him there?

You put enough distance (you always find the distance first where the dog reacts so you know where to start, you don't just walk up to the dog and let it go mad) between the stooge dog and the aggressive dog, that the aggressive dog will not be freaked out and will eventually offer non aggressive behaviour! The display of non aggressive behaviour is also shaped, so at the beginning the slightest head turn or look to the side for example will suffice to "make the stooge dog go away", eventually more obvious and prolonged non aggressive signals/behaviour is required.

Vera

[LurcherGirl]

I think this just proves as I've always believed that a dog doesn't need positive only training to change a behaviour.
I have done this myself but if I'd have voiced it on here it would have been wrong to some of you. Now it's ok because a behaviourist said so with a masters degree.

It depends very much how it is done! You don't just walk up to the aggressive dog with another dog and let the aggressive dog freak out... It is done very carefully to keep the stress levels to an absolute minimum! In fact, ideally, the initial distance is so far that the aggressive dog doesn't actually go into a full display but just the initial aggression indications, e.g. stiffening of body, growl...

There is by the way absolutely no question that dogs can be trained by other methods than positive reinforcement only - we all know that punishment and negative reinforcement can change our own behaviour as well as our dogs or any other animals... It's how we learn! The question simply is how stressed a dog is because of it and what the side effects are!

Vera

[KellyS]

I think dogs need challenges in life ...it's sad if they go through life without facing a challenge even if it's one they don't initially like, if we don't subject them to some mild stress they are never going to be able to cope with some of the things life throws at them.... I don't think anybody should attempt these methods unless they are experienced or have assistance from an experienced person as it could go horribley wrong

[LurcherGirl]

I don't think anybody should attempt these methods unless they are experienced or have assistance from an experienced person as it could go horribley wrong

Absolutely, but that goes for pretty much any aggression training.

Vera

[Saffaroo]

I'm very interested in this as one of mine, Saffy can be a proper little madam with other dogs - but only sometimes  there seems to be no particular type of dog, size doesn't come into it  and they can be on or off lead - may be she's just selective about who she likes    Seriously, it can be embarrassing as my other dog, Shelley is exactly the opposite - she loves every other dog she comes across.......

[bluegirl]

I think this just proves as I've always believed that a dog doesn't need positive only training to change a behaviour.
I have done this myself but if I'd have voiced it on here it would have been wrong to some of you. Now it's ok because a behaviourist said so with a masters degree.

It depends very much how it is done! You don't just walk up to the aggressive dog with another dog and let the aggressive dog freak out... It is done very carefully to keep the stress levels to an absolute minimum! In fact, ideally, the initial distance is so far that the aggressive dog doesn't actually go into a full display but just the initial aggression indications, e.g. stiffening of body, growl...

There is by the way absolutely no question that dogs can be trained by other methods than positive reinforcement only - we all know that punishment and negative reinforcement can change our own behaviour as well as our dogs or any other animals... It's how we learn! The question simply is how stressed a dog is because of it and what the side effects are!

Vera

I understand that, thats why I said it.

[emms]

Karen Pryor touches on a similar method (but with llamas being aggressive towards people) in 'don't shoot the dog.'

Let us know what the rest of the seminar is like.

[Top Barks]

I think this just proves as I've always believed that a dog doesn't need positive only training to change a behaviour.
I have done this myself but if I'd have voiced it on here it would have been wrong to some of you. Now it's ok because a behaviourist said so with a masters degree.

You can voice any oppinion you like and although there is an element of neagtive reinforcement there is also positive reinforcement going on too. The dog does get positive reinforcement by the scary dog going away.
People who who put forward ideas need to be able to back them up that's all and all ideas and methods are up for debate in my book.
If you don't want to join in thats up to you.

[bluegirl]

I'm up for new ideas as much as the next and yes I'm entitled to opinions too,after all  it's a discussion board . Researched based ideas are essential in any line of work, just merely pointing out that this has an negative reinforcement element to it and negative reinforcement has seen to being very much out of fashion for some time. Not saying either are right or wrong as with everything informed choices help make people choose their own training routines, goes for how we learn and how our animals learn.

[Helen]

isn't there an element of this that some of us use in every day situations with our dogs?

I know I do with Jarv when he meets other dogs - it's not always the friendly happy greeting you want your dog to have but I tend to let him get on with it, and sometimes yes it could escalate and it has....I usually walk a bit away when I think it could go past all mouth and trousers business and whistle him which gives him a distancing tactic too and he will almost always immediately come to me - but that's the kind of dog he is.    I wouldn't call this negative or positive, just letting a dog get on with communicating with it's own species and it actually leaves me with my heart in my mouth sometimes as all you humanly want to do is protect them.

IMHO if you stifle a dogs behaviour and 'protect' them when they do greet each other then this potentially creates further situations in time as they won't have learnt how to interact and when to back off (or not back off as the case may be).

This of course is just day to day dealings with a dog that doesn't (I don't think) have any aggression problems - if I had a dog with learnt fear aggression/aggression issues I would be straight to a behaviourist and/or socialisation classes.

...and of course I could be completely way off beam here....

[Cob-Web]

this has an negative reinforcement element to it and negative reinforcement has seen to being very much out of fashion for some time.

The risk with negative reinforcement is just that - it carries risk - risk of going wrong and either escalating existing issues, or triggering new problems   That is not to say there isn't a place for it, but imo, it is certainly not necessary for the majority of dog owners and pet dogs, especially when positive reinforcement tools are so accessible and carry no greater risk to the dog than not working 

Recommending punishment or negative reinforcement techniques on a forum, to inexperienced dog handlers, with limited understanding of the dog or context within which the behaviour is displayed, can have tragic consequences

Anyone who has a problem with their dog that is so severe that if not solved could lead to the dog losing its life should be seeking the advice of a suitably experienced (and qualified) behaviourist, who can supervise the implementation of these techniques and monitor the dog to ensure there are no unwanted side effects 

[spanielcrazy]

I think we all do this a bit with our own dogs, but in a controlled situation with a really fearful or aggressive dog, this is a very useful tool, and could be used for any type of fear or aggression (people, dogs, etc) Certainly more humane and effective than the old "flooding" tecnique!  

IMHO if you stifle a dogs behaviour and 'protect' them when they do greet each other then this potentially creates further situations in time as they won't have learnt how to interact and when to back off (or not back off as the case may be).

I agree with this, but I think that this method is for rehabilitating dogs who already have issues

A book that shows a similar method in action is Pamela Dennisons "Bringing light to Shadow; A Dog Trainers Diary", her journal of rehabbing a people aggressive dog



I'm afraid I'm not seeing what is "negative reinforcing" or even negative about the principle that Mark posted 

[Helen]

I'm afraid I'm not seeing what is "negative reinforcing" or even negative about the principle that Mark posted 

nor me?