colour not recognized by Kc

[bajoleth]

Now I love the Sable colouring so am not setting out to offend anyone , but from what I read from this thread and limited references from the web, I take it that the Sable colour is a 'rogue' and therefore 'undesirable' colour, which is why I presume there were previously not many around as they were not bred from (like white boxers, gsd etc). In more current time where unusual becomes 'desirable' then they have been bred from again. Is this it in a nutshell or have I got it all wrong?
With the KC no longer regarding it as a recognised colour does that mean that breeding from Sables should be discouraged? Would the colour be considered a fault therfore make succeesful showing practically impossible (like a solid black having mismarked white?) Sorry for all the questions but that is how I see the situation but not sure if I am understanding it correctly

[Doro]

in germany it is sable since 1986 one color from the solid colors and accept as a solid cocker spaniel. the new form is the sable roan. this color is since 1,5 or two years in germany and is one of the partie colors.

[spanielkiss]

What will be , will be where it comes to our new breed standard colour list . It may make a few waves in Europe though as sable has already been accepted in the FCI ....
Anyone can show a sable but if it's considered undesirable in the breed standard I guess judges will " take points away " for the colour when it comes to deciding which dogs are on the cards .
I think only sable minded enthusiastic judges will give sable a red rosette in a champ show if this all goes ahead and it's unlikely that there would ever be a UK sable show champion  . The sable I bred became the 1st sable British bred Champion the moment he stepped on foreign soil ! he's now a champ in 2 countries and should go on to get his international champion title ,that says it all !
 Red black and blue are generally the big winners and have donimated in the UK shows for years, liver seems to have been undesirable to most judges for years too , colours have never been very popular here and it's hard to change decades of opinion .
Its refreshing to go to a show abroad and see so many more colors being shown successfully . What really matters to me is the quality of the dog and as barely any conscientious exhibitors own sable there are few of show standard . The ones we see being bred mostly here are from pet homes or the new wave of hobby breeder who "show"  once in a blue moon so they can say are exhibitors .
Let me say now I am not knocking them here .... each to their own ! but they breed pets , few would be looking at which stud would improve confirmation , or which bitch may throw a more classic head ,they generally breed their puppy's to create the sable colour... period .This pet market won't be affected by what may happen in the KC and its breeders have no say in the decision unless they are breed club members .  It's the show scene in the UK that will be affected and with so few involved with sable there are few who care .
I have a gorgeous black boy to show so its no big deal to me that I can't show sable but quite honestly I have no plan to exhibit him in the UK again anyway , I find the show scene on the whole a bit undesirable   

[Jane S]

The sable I bred became the 1st sable British bred Champion the moment he stepped on foreign soil ! he's now a champ in 2 countries and should go on to get his international champion title ,that says it all !

That's lovely for you and his owner but of course it is very much easier to make up any colour in overseas countries simply because they have a very different system to ours - less dogs being shown usually and many more CACs/CACIBs etc on offer than we have (plus of course dogs do not have to beat currently shown Champions as happens here).

I also like to see different colours being shown - we have successfully shown minority colours here in the UK and will continue to do so even though it's sometimes quite challenging I'm fairly ambivalent really to the whole sable controversy - I personally didn't vote to change the breed standard but clubs are run in a democratic way with the majority vote being carried which is as it should be. I just think it's sad that a few dedicated breeders of this colour pattern have had their efforts undermined by those who have exploited and are continuing to exploit it for commercial gain. I also wish as much passion could be demonstrated for health issues, type and temperament by some of the people currently making rather a lot of noise about sable (not aiming this at you of course as I know you have always taken health testing etc seriously)

[Marina and Saartje]

In the Netherlands the liver (roan) and sable aren't so desirable also.. Just ones in a while a liver, liverroan or sable will get first place. They get good showresults first place...  

Over here it's nine out of ten a blue roan which wins first place.
I don't like the atmosphere on shows... lots of hatred and envy   And with these two of mine I can only make a change on winning a photocompetitions  

[spanielkiss]

I totally agree with you Jane ..... The numbers are quite low in classes abroad and all qualities of dogs shown  . The judges often come from all over the world , rather than being fellow exhibitors in the breed which to me feels more real and fair . I preferred the more relaxed atmosphere I experienced too a bit like an open show here . However , I believe that one should follow the rules of the country we live in and respect the way decisions are made , or get out .
If this wording is brought into force and there is an outcry from the FCI and European breeders maybe that will force a rethink but a handful of exhibitors here certainly won't . As for Health issues ... don't get me started  ... To me Germany ( VDH ) have got things right there with they're strict breeding regulations .

[Jane S]

If this wording is brought into force and there is an outcry from the FCI and European breeders maybe that will force a rethink but a handful of exhibitors here certainly won't . As for Health issues ... don't get me started  ... To me Germany ( VDH ) have got things right there with they're strict breeding regulations .

Who knows what will happen but I don't think the FCI will want to interfere with a breed of British origin - they have always adopted the UK Kennel Club standards for British breeds generally. It would be like the UK Kennel Club demanding the FCI make changes to the standard of a breed of European (ie non British) origin

[nicky29]

I have just spoken to someone from the cocker club and they confirmed that Sable will no longer be a recognised colour in UK, the decision is already made. She said that she thinks it will be classed as a fault. I think that it is disgusting that a handful of self opionated people can make such a judgment and change the colours that are acceptable as they see fit. Does this mean that sable cockers worldwide are all now pretty much dismissed from the show ring?? what colour will be next?

[Jane S]

Just a reminder please for anybody contributing to this thread to please remain polite. On other social media sites, I've seen this debate being conducted in quite a combative and aggressive way whereas the discussion on this thread has been very polite - I hope it continues without any insults being hurled around (and yes calling all voting members of the Cocker Spaniel Breed Council "a handful of self-opinionated people" is insulting, no matter how strongly you feel about the subject)

As far as treating as a fault goes, the Kennel Club has made it quite clear that no breed standard will ever contain "disqualifying faults" so it is not the case that sables will ever be dismissed or disqualified from the ring. The only things that can lead to a dog being excused from the ring by a judge are "savage disposition" or if it's "suffering from any visible condition which adversely affects its health or welfare"

[Loes]

Jane,

I'm getting a bit confused about the consequences of breeding sable's. So please correct me if I'm wrong:

If I understand correctly sables will be are an unrecognized colour (and therefore will not get a pedigree). But sable is not a reason to disqualify?   

[Jane S]

If I understand correctly sables will be are an unrecognized colour (and therefore will not get a pedigree). But sable is not a reason to disqualify?   

That's not been established yet - we don't know whether it will be possible to still register sables after it is omitted from the list of desirable colours (they may still be allowed to be registered as "non standard colour" as happens in other breeds) This will need clarification from the Kennel Club.