Challenging boy

[Dani4710]

Hello everyone. This is my first post so I apologise if this is in the wrong section.
I'm looking for a bit of advice for my 9 month old WCS boy (not neutered) as we are having a couple of issues and have tried everything we can think of. He has had lots of training with a trainer and we plan to start agility when he is old enough as I feel this will build our relationship and hopefully help him be more obedient. In the house he is pretty much spot on with basic training and only occasionally ignores me. Outside is a different matter. I have worked on his training outside originally off the lead as well as on the lead which can either be spot on or he will just completely ignore me. A couple of months back he decided he wasn't going to listen when off the lead and just ran off and was a nightmare to get back to me. Since I cannot risk taking him off the lead as his recall has gone pretty much to 0 since,  I try recall on the 8m lead but he is too busy being distracted outside and won't even look at me when I ask him to 'watch me'. If anyone has any recall tips this will be appreciated! I have read some of the other posts and are considering a long line to try and get the recall back.
We are also having a bed wetting issue; Since having him we have had 'separation issues' as he came from a very large litter and very large 'family' pack of dogs (he came from a working farm and socialised with the working dogs). He is crated in the kitchen over night, and most nights he barks, howls and scratches at his crate and does wet the bed. He doesn't do this during the day when he is left in the crate. He has his last wee at 11pm and can hold until 6 when I get up to let him out and take him for a walk as he has done in the past. It has been suggested that we crate him in our bedroom however my OH won't have any of this. His last drink is about 8pm to try to stop the bed wetting too.
Overall he has a beautiful loving temperament, we are just struggling to find a way to focus his high energy into engaging his brain. He is a much better behaved dog when with my parents dogs and we are considering at some point in the future getting another cocker for company however we want to combat these behaviour issues first as we don't want his habits rubbing off on another dog. His parents are the most docile, friendliest nature.

Any advice is much appreciated
Thanks, Dani

[Patp]

Hi Dani

Somebody will be along with far more experience of working cockers to offer advice, but my initial thoughts are have you looked into finding a good gun dog trainer?  My experience of my daughters workers (mine is a very low energy show cocker) is that they need a purpose or job to do, whether it be seeking out a dummy for reward or other search games.

xx

[Dani4710]

Hi
we have thought about gundog training but always thought he would need to be a bit older and more mature before he starts.  I do give him lots of scenting challenges in the house and garden and have puzzles for him to solve to keep him occupied. I will look into it and see what local trainers are available.
Thanks!

[Gazrob]

First of all I would forget about getting a second dog as you are just going to create more problems for yourselves. It sounds to me like you need help I agree with the other posters I think you need help from a gundog trainer to at least get some basic training down even if you don't plan on working him. I don't work my dog he's happy to run around sniffing out things. I trained my dog myself it's been very tough at times but you just have to stick with it don't give up. I recommend training a whistle stop and recall it has worked wonders for me. His recall went before I got the whistle now he's a lot better. There are times when he ignores me still but hes a lot better than before. I also recommend training him in areas with as little distractions as possible at first then work your way up.

[lescef]

Hi. My two are show c?ckers but one is very 'deaf' when she feels like it! I agree with the other comments..
Remember though he is only nine months and going through the adolescent phase when they can be very trying.
A long line might help but I found that  Maddie knew she was on it and  just ignored me once off it. A trainer would probably say that the distractions are too great so you need to find a place where the smells are not so interesting so that he can make the right choice to come to you.
I find Maddie responds better to the whistle than me shouting. Only recall if you know they will come or it reinforces the bad behaviour. I also practice in the house. If they happen to be walking towards me I say "come" just to reinforce it whenever I can.
I think recall is probably the most difficult skill to master with a spaniel!

[Dani4710]

Ok thank you, we will look into gun dog training. Our previous trainer told us that most people with cockers don?t bother until they are about 2 years old due to their attention span so we never thought more of it and said would wait until he is about 2. And I will look into whistle training as this sounds interesting and possibly more successful.  It feels such a shame that he was doing so well then all of a sudden just doesn?t listen anymore, maybe it?s the hormones I don?t know but I am working very hard with him every day and not getting anywhere at the moment it?s as though I?ve hit a stubborn wall. I will look at what gundog training options are available in my area.

Thank again!

[bmthmark]

I definitely recommend gun dog training. Not only because of the obedience side but also the socialisation. Cockers love to be around other cockers so they love it and they learn a lot from others.

I started gun dog training at around 4 months old (I think). The place I go have a puppy group, so they don't expect you or the dog to know anything and everything is basic.

If I remember correctly its quite common for a puppy to be doing really well then bang, they ignore everything and its like they have had no training. I think its related to confidence, when they are so small they rely on the owner and will do literally anything you say. As they get old and bigger the confidence grows, they then start to believe they don't need the owner so much and many run off etc (mine did this).
I was advised to go back to basics and reinforce praise and give lots of treats when he does little things. For example when he did come back to me I would give him treats and lots of praise. I made it so exciting to come back that when I called or whistle he would instantly turn and return for his treat. My plan was to make myself (and treats) more important than him running around sniffing.
This works well, until he see's a squirrel but that's my work in progress. He is obsessed with squirrels and just wants to chase them  .

Just remember he is only 9 months, so is still a puppy. Don't expect too much from him just yet.

Good luck

[elaine.e]

Have you tried leaving the crate door open at night? I don't know how long he's in the crate during the day, or how often, but perhaps he can't settle in it at night if he's in it and on his own quite often during the day, and might be more relaxed if the door was open and he could choose where to sleep within the room. He's obviously unsettled and unhappy in the crate at night from your description of his barking, howling and scratching. So I expect he's getting himself so worked up and agitated that he can't help but need a pee.

[Dani4710]

we tried opening the crate at night and giving him the run of the kitchen however he howled all night and wee'd all over the kitchen floor and was very distressed all night. We tried for a week but it was a week of the same behaviour so we went back to shutting the crate just so all 3 of us could get a good nights sleep. He doesn't wet the bed every night, but he does do it most nights. He might have had some time in the day crated but he has at least 2 walks a day as he has so much energy and constant training and brain training activities, by 8 o'clock every night the lights are out for him and he is flat out fast asleep. We are thinking of trying the open crate door again at some point, I don't know whether during the day would be best first as he is much more settled in the day compared to night time.

[wendall]

This is a good group on Facebook
Dog Training Support and Advice.

[Holly Berry]

I would recommend that you read a book called The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. For me this book was so insightful even after owning cockers for 20 years.

Jean Donaldson is a respected behaviourist, who has spent years looking at why dogs behave as they do. Dogs do not think like humans, they do not have human emotions, and whilst they can sense danger in the moment thay can?t think ahead and certainly rely on learnt behaviours.

From your post, several things stand out for me. You say he was from a large ?family? of dogs, so isolation from his new ?family? is confusing. He can?t understand that you are excluding him at certain times.

Secondly you say that he?s asleep at 8pm, but then presumably you are waking him up to have his last wee at 11pm and then when he?s then awake you isolate him and go to bed and expect him to go back to sleep. Do you play with him before you go to bed?

The other thing that strikes me is that he maybe getting too much stimulation and in the process becoming more hyper.

You say that he had a lot of training with a trainer, but don?t say what that the training  was. Did they do any training on timeout and calming techniques?

He?s still very young. Yes he has a lot of energy, but he also needs lots of rest, plus he now has hormones raging through his body.

My recommendation would be before you take him to gun dog training, which may be too much stimulation for him, consult an APDT trainer/behaviourist to observe him and point you in the right direction.

I?m not a trainer, but an experienced owner, who at the moment has a challenging 12 week old puppy!

Good luck and you will come out the other end.

[Emilyoliver]

Hi,

I have 2 working type cockers (who work), and would strongly advise gundog training for yours.  What it should help with is both general discipline and focus  - the basic foundations of gundog training are learning focus and patience.  If you go to a spaniel based gundog trainer you will be shown how to engage him in games where he is able to hunt - which i would imagine is exactly what he is doing when he 'runs off' and won't listen.  The difference with the gundog training part is that he will learn to hunt for and with you rather than for himself.  It's best to start early otherwise he will have learned all the unacceptable behaviours in the interim and they will be so much more difficult to correct once they have become a habit.  Most people who work or train gundogs start early with the basics of fun hunting and retrieving along with a bit of general obedience like sit and walk on the lead.  Where are you based?  may be able to recommend a decent trainer in your area.

[Digger]

Hi- loads of good advice there-as usual with c.o.l!

I just wanted to add that I have a working cocker (15months). A couple of things that may help:
1) I trained her recall with Pippa Mattinsons method which worked very well. I'm not saying she's absolutely perfect but she's pretty good 95% of the time. I rarely have her on a lead and she doesn't walk to heel-I let her range off a bit and do her spaniely thing but she's under control. She comes with, and if I whistle, she'll come right in (administer treat for every recall) even if playing with another dog. The method works on 'conditioning' rather than 'training'.  I can explain it if you're interested.
2) A double edged sword I realise, but if you can encourage some interest in a ball, then you can whip that out if other things fail. Mine loves it so much- the rest of the world disappears once she has it.
3) Mine did get a bit cocky at about 9 months too. I stepped up my authority a little bit at that time and if she had bogged off in a particular place I wouldn't go there for a bit so she couldn't do it again. You dont want them racking up scores really! ..so I wouldn't worry too much- keep your cool and believe you're in charge and I'm sure he'll come good.

I met an ancient old guy the other day and mine started jumping up at him. I apologised and he said 'what??? It's a cocker! They're puppies til they're two!' So that was me told. And made to feel better and worse all at once!

[Dani4710]

Thanks for all of the advice!
We are in Worcestershire so if there are any known gundog training places I?d appreciate this!
With regards to his training he has done basic obedience and when we can get his attention he is really good, it?s just catching those snapshots as otherwise he just is not interested. We are still working with him.
At the moment he is interested in a ball inside, as soon as he?s outside he couldn?t care less. I am working on retrieving and he is getting better so hopefully the ball will become interesting at some point! Or another toy at least. The difficulty we have had is he isn?t toy or food orientated.

[Gazrob]

Maybe try managing him more. Don't let him go off lead if you think there is a chance that he will ignore your recall. Let him off lead in a park or somewhere where there are less distractions and work on the training and slowly build up. If you arent going to work him and he already knows the basics going to a gundog trainer might not be worth it. I've trained my dog the heel command which is great because if he ignores my recall which he sometimes does he will come back if I use the heel command.