CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: Goldie on May 08, 2006, 07:24:41 PM
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I have an eight month old coker who over the last 3 months is increasingly showing signs of 'rage'.
Situations to flare a rage 'attack' would be approaching while he was resting, eating, stroking and reaching for his collar. The worst time begins in the early evening and he will not let my husband or I approach him for the remainder of the night.
The attacks are really only aimed at my husband and I. When outside and with strangers and other dogs >:Dhe is great.!
There are warning signs - he stands very still and rigid and stares. His eyes glaze over and the growling begins which very quickly tunrs into very agressive snarling.
To date he has not bitten but has begun to lunge forward when snarling. He does not respond whilst in a rage and afterwards is very moody and will not let you apporach him for some time. I have become very wary of my dog and feel that he now senses this.
We have contacted a behavourist and changed his diet to a low protein, gluten free complete meal and he has also be neutered ( 3 weeks ago ). None of this has made a difference.
I am very worried that this problem will escalate out of control and really need advice on what to do next.!!
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Hi Goldie and welcome to the forum. I've moved your post here as it may have got lost in the Introductions section.
Sorry to hear you are experiencing problems, they do sound very worrying. The best thing you can do is have a read of the Cocker Rage website and contact Linda Ward, who runs it. She would be the best person to advise on what to do.
http://www.cockerspanielrage.org.uk/
Good luck.
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I'm not an expert, but I am not sure that you have a case of rage there at all. But it would be good to get in touch with Linda, as Colin suggests. She really is an expert.
Rage, as far as I know, is significant in that it comes on without any kind of trigger. What you are describing sounds more like behavioural problems to me.
I do think it is something you should try to deal with as soon as possible, and I would suggest getting in touch with a GOOD behaviourist who will come to you at home and assess the situation, then work through each issue with you.
Diet may be a factor, and certainly one that is easily fixed, but my guess is that this is more than this.
If you could let us know where you live, you might find some recommendations for a behaviourist. Also we have some forum members who are very able to help and advise from a distance, but that won't be enough.
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Rage is quite rare but its always best to seek outside help and as Colin suggests contact Linda Ward in the 1st instance. Also its always better if someone else, i.e. a professional, can see your dog, and preferably one who is cocker savvy and who is more inclined to keep an open mind rather than a closed one who thinks rage 1st and does nothing when actually the dog may be showing signs of other forms of behaviour
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I agree with Annette, this sounds more like a behavioual issue rather than "rage" to me
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Having re-read my earlier post I don't think I worded it very well - I hope I didn't give the impression I think your dog does have rage as I'm in no position to make such a diagnosis. I've never encountered a Cocker with rage, few of us have.
Several owners have posted on here with worries about rage and usually their dogs have had aggression problems that can be dealt with by behaviour modification programmes - in some cases the dogs have just been unruly puppies requiring a re-setting of boundaries. Hopefully your dog will fall into one of these categories, although it does seem more serious than the unruly puppy stage. Linda Ward is experienced in dealing with all manner of behavioural problems and will be happy to offer advice that few of us on here are qualified to give until a proper assesment of the nature of the problem has been made.
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Thank you all for your comments.... and Colin I didn;t think you were suggesting that my dog has 'rage' so don;t worry about that :-)
Before joining the forum I had actually sent an email to Linda Warde advising of the problems we've been facing so hopefully she will be able to advise what to do next.
I live in Belfast so if anyone knows of a local good behaviourist preferably specialising in Cockers that would be great....
The behavourist I contacted previously genralised the problemsl and other than changing feeding habits and not allowing the dog onto the furniture etc was not a great help. I found it strange that he did not want to see the dog at all.?! Is this standard procedure?
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The behavourist I contacted previously genralised the problemsl and other than changing feeding habits and not allowing the dog onto the furniture etc was not a great help. I found it strange that he did not want to see the dog at all.?! Is this standard procedure?
a good behaviourist would need to come to your home and see your dog. What your previous behaviourist has done is nothing more than people on here are doing now---in the way that we haven't seen your dog either and can only go on what information you give us and so generalise.
The best place to start is with your vet (unless they referred you to the behaviourist you saw in the 1st place).
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Several owners have posted on here with worries about rage and usually their dogs have had aggression problems that can be dealt with by behaviour modification programmes - in some cases the dogs have just been unruly puppies requiring a re-setting of boundaries.
I was one of them ;)
It's very worrying, but please remember that true cocker rage syndrom is very very rare. I Once suspected Billy had "rage". I searched every web site available and made myself worry like mad. If it wasn't for COL a good behaviourist and my OH I'd have lost the plot.
Thankfully our issues with Billy ( which sound very very similar to yours) are now resolved and hopefully never to return ;)
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There are warning signs - he stands very still and rigid and stares. His eyes glaze over and the growling begins which very quickly tunrs into very agressive snarling.
To date he has not bitten but has begun to lunge forward when snarling.
This is EXACTLY what Billy used to do. I do sympathise as it is very very frightening for us owners when this happens. You really need to avoid eye contact during times like this as this can be seen as a threat or a come on and don't put yourself in a situation where he can corner you.
I hope you find a behaviourist soon. I got my behaviourist via the vet, I spoke to her the same night i visited the vets and she gave me lots of do's and don'ts on the phone and we then made an appointment for an assesment where Billy was involved too.
I'm sure you'll soon sort this out ;)
Keep us informed
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Yesyerday Rachel gave me an e-mail address on another thread of mine when I was posting about a similar problem. It is www.apdt.co.uk - go to list of trainers and then Northern Ireland. There is a list of names there of local trainers.
Hope it is of some help.
Kathy
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Thank you KB for the web site of dog trainers. When I first looked at this I saw that the behaviourist who had visited our house ( mentioned earlier )was on the list..... but as I have previously mentioned he did not work with the dog and so there have been no positive changes in my dog.
I contacted Linda Warde and she feels that my dog has a form of rage and that there is nothing she can suggest other than contacting the breeder, which I have already done but there was little interest there. I don;t know what she could do anyway as we don;t want to hand him back!!..... I'm now really worried, as he lunged at me 2 nights ago and caught my skin. He also snapped at my mum and caught her hand.
I've contacted another behaviourist from the web site ( he is also recommended by a friend ) and he is coming to our house in a week or so.... he has assured me he will want to work with both my husband, myself AND also the dog..... he is such a beautiful dog and in between 'rages' he is great.... I really hope this works!
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Goldie,
If you have a look at some of my threads you will find that I am having several similar difficulties with Honey - So I am by no means an expert.
Before the behaviourust come have a good look at what is happening around these episodes af aggression. Where is he when it is happening, what is going on around him, what he was doing before it and so on. Keep a note over the next week, so you can give examples to the behaviourist when he comes.
His aggression may seem to be unprovoked, but you may discover that there is in fact something provoking it which is not immediately apparent. If he is fine outside you may find that it is a territorial thing and that he has developed some kind of ofear aggression about something which is not obvious. As I say I am probably the last person to be giving advice, but I am sure the right behaviourist will know what to do.
I was convinced that Honey had some form of rage, but when I thought back over it I could see how her behaviour had developed and I can now see the reasons why she is doing some of the things.
I am sure you are very anxious about all of this, but I am sure it can be worked out. He is still a relatively young dog and behaviours can be modified. In a short time of making some changes with Honey, I am beginning to see small changes already. Good Luck!
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Its so hard to give any advice without knowing the whole picture? Has he come from a puppy farm? How long have you had him? Is it just you and your husband? Has he been spoilt (allowed to become dominant)? Has he been to the vet for a check?
It could be very simple in that if its only happening at night then he might just be tired, does he sleep during the day? If its rage then it is usually sudden onset, my own feelings on the very brief information are that he has been mistreated or poorly socialised as a pup and is wary of human contact. Or that he has become dominant and is exerting his authority.
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just wondering how you were getting along -let us know if you get a chance
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Hi KB... thanks for asking!!
We had a bit of a set back at the beginning of last week... my poor pup became sick.. vomiting etc and we took him to the vet... after looking at Xrays they decided they would need to operate to ensure there was nothing serious.... luckily there wasn't ... just seemed to be a bad infection, probably from all the things he manages to eat when out walking, but both my husband and i were very upset that our pup had to go through this.
Anyway, he is now well on the road to recovery and a couple of nights ago another bahavourist visited the house... this time he worked with both the pup and my husband and I, and I have to say I have high hopes his suggestions will help. we hope to overcome the problem of growling if passing him whilst eating from his bowl, the problem of handling his collar and also his love of eating tissues, as we are presently unable to remove anything from his mouth without a whole snarling and biting session.
We were told the do's and don'ts when he does growl/snarl and it would appear that we have been walking him a bit too much and so he may have been too tired in the evenings as someone had suggested.
We have noticed a considerable improvement in the last few weeks or so anyway ( not sure if this is as a result of his being neutered )and he has become much more sociable in the evenings, wanting attention whereas before, we could not have approached him.
Just want to answer a few questions that were recently asked by 'solid worker'. We got our pup from a reputable breeder in Southern Ireland and he has not been mistreated. We have had him since he was 8 weeks old and he has not been spoilt.... both my husband and I grew up with dogs that got away with a lot more! He does not always get his own way unless it comes down to safety ( ie biting etc ) and is no longer allowed on the furniture. If he wants to sit on knees we sit on the floor with him. He generally loves human contact, but as i've mentioned he just doesn't generally like his collar fiddled with... this is something we are now concentrating on.
For a while I had lost confidence to handle the pup, which I know he could sense, but over the last few weeks this is strengthening again and I feel that both myself and the pup are happier for this.... lets just hope it continues.
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It's great to hear that things are settling. I hope you don't mind - I have pm'd you.
Let us know how things go!
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Good to hear things are sorting themselves out, if he is eating everything then it might be worth putting a muzzle on him until he is trained out of it?
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I'm not sure that a muzzle really helps all that much. From what I've heard, when you start leaving the muzzle off they go back to eating everything again.
Probably better to really go for the "leave it" command. (Touch of irony here, we are a long way from sorting this out with Buddy!!!)
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I agree with Annette - we have taught a "give" command for when she has something in her mouth - we quickly exchange it for something more interesting - a favourite treat. Do this everytime at first and then mix it up a bit keeping the expectation going. Iam sure your behaviourist will help you find the best to deal with it anyway.
I think pinching and eating things is something that cockers tend to do. If we were to try to stop Honey by muzzling her she would have to be muzzled all the time! A bit extreme in my opinion - but each to their own.
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Only suggessted muzzling as a temporary option whilst training for a dog that has already had to undergo surgery for eating something he shouldn't have. Given the choice between muzzling and putting a dog through a surgical procedure then I would opt for the muzzle, and work on the leave command.
Then when getting a response from the leave command, use of the muzzle could be phased out, but re-applied if he ignores the leave command. Obviously if wearing a muzzle causes the dog distress then it should be avoided. However its important to put the owner or handlers emotional concerns to one side and ask "what is best for the dog", "is the dog distressed by the muzzle", "is the distress of wearing a muzzle for a temporary period greater than that which the dog would endure through illness and surgical procedures"?
Sooty has had a soft (fabric) muzzle for a while now, but you could still put it back on the shelf and sell it as new as it has been that little used, I like him to be "free" as much as possible, but practically accept there are times for his safety and the safety of others when he should be muzzled. When I first went to muzzle him I was apprehensive of what his reaction would be, however there was no reaction at all!
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I think she was being a bit "TONGUE IN CHEEK" when she said it was probably something he had eaten. The surgery was from my reading of the post, probably exploratory, as the xrays maybe didn't show anything conclusive. The dog was then diagnosed as having an infection after the surgery - any animal can pick up something unpleasant on a walk and eat it . I don't see anything to suggest it was this that necessarily caused the infection and there was obviously no obstruction caused by anything the dog had eaten.
I have read many threads about the weird and wonderful things cockers eat. I do not see any evidence to suggest that anything the dog ate made him sick, apart from an off the cuff remark made probably in jest.