CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: Sylprice on April 03, 2017, 09:58:15 AM
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Hi, wonder if anyone can help. I'm helping my mother in her search for a show type cocker spaniel pup. I've just received some updated pictures of puppies we are interested in at 5 weeks and they don't look as 'show' to me as I was expecting. The ears seem quite short and I can't see the classic 'domed head'. I'm wondering if at this age it would be possible to tell? The breeder is very helpful, says they are show type with perhaps a bit of working in the history somewhere. They will be KC registered. Mum looks like a classic show, Dad is apparently show but I've just seen a picture so not 100% sure. We are due to go and visit, obviously, but want to know if there's anything I can look out for. When we bought my mum's last puppy years ago, we were assured she was show but as she grew up it was clear she was more working- we loved her, but Mum wants a classic show type this time. Is there any way to be certain by looking- or, should I request the KC papers in advance, would this help?
Many thanks to anyone who's able to help!
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Hi, yes I'd ask for the parents' pedigrees as you can usually tell quite a bit from them. Any FTCh prefixes will indicate working strain. Otherwise there are also well-known working kennels which if in the pedigree anywhere will show the other strain. What are the parents' KC names? I can look them up on MyKC for you and let you know whether there is specific evidence of working strain if you like? Otherwise you could do this. Google MyKC, and then register - it's free and quite simple. Then you can look individual dogs up.
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Thank you, I will try that myself. But I am expecting to see some working strain on the KC reg as the breeder has told me there is some (one grandmother I think)- so I guess my problem is, even if that's the case, when looking at the puppy can I tell whether that working strain is going to show up in her a lot, or whether she will turn out more show type..
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Um, how much WC is allowed and how far back for it to be deemed "show" ???
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I guess it's about the look of the dog- my mum is after that classic show look of domed head and long, low ears. It's not that she's bothered what the pedigree is, more to get an idea of what the puppy will look like when it's older.
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I thought that there would have to be some kind of breeding "rule" that dictated if a dog is working or show !!
Ps
A distant neighbour has just got a show cocker but it looks all WC to me, even they are questioning its breeding
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interesting! My sister has a show cocker that looks 'classic show' if you know what I mean. we looked at photos of it at 8 weeks and it looks completely different from these puppies at 5 weeks....so I'm just wondering whether at this age you'd expect them to have the classic looks. I do appreciate that there's not really any way to know exactly how a puppy will look (and it's not all about looks) but you seem to pay a premium for a show cocker and it's that look my mum is after.
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I thought that there would have to be some kind of breeding "rule" that dictated if a dog is working or show !!
I have been wondering about that too. Are there any rules, or is it just down to looks? I was told my girl comes from a show mother and worker father. But the father looks like a show to me, maybe a little bit more worker in the body but definitely show head. My girl is more athletic and energetic than shows I've known, but her head is all show type. I have wondered if they called him working cocker just because he, and many others from his lines, were worked, because he certainly didn't look like a working type.
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Even if your pup looks like a "classic show type" if there is worker in the mix then be prepared for the energy and determination of a worker! You may be lucky and get a scs with the temperament and energy of a scs although Pearl who is a 5 generation scs is more like a wcs!
I believe the general thought of breed purity is 3 generations - there is a whole "hoo-ha" around the wcs lines and if they are pure or not, which if 3 generations on from dogs deemed suspect seem to endorse the 3 generation thought process. I have a bitch with the lines mentioned and her DNA result is pure wcs at 4 generations.
Although the breeder of this pup is being honest with you, if your Mum wants a pure scs then I would suggest walking away and contacting the breed club for help in finding a pup with 5 generations of scs.
Good luck in your search,
Jayne
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many thanks for everyone's help and contributions on the breeding history- I'll definitely pass on to my mum the info about differences in energy etc!
But in terms of solely the look of the puppies, what could I expect a 'classic show cocker' to look like at around 5 weeks- would it have a distinct domed head/ long & low set ears, or do these features develop as they get older? The ones we are seeing have quite short ears and fairly squarish heads. They are very young at the moment, but of course we need to pay a deposit to reserve now- we can't wait and see what they look like at 8/10 weeks as they'll all be reserved.
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This is Blue at 5 weeks:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7706/27227117720_6680708848_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HtY6w9)Blue at 5 weeks (https://flic.kr/p/HtY6w9) by Fiona (https://www.flickr.com/photos/92039059@N02/), on Flickr
and at 10weeks:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7321/27552086192_6957c1524f_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HYFDjQ)Blue age 10 weeks (https://flic.kr/p/HYFDjQ) by Fiona (https://www.flickr.com/photos/92039059@N02/), on Flickr
Hope these help?
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I believe Laurië was 6 weeks in this photo. I think it's easy to see that she would get the show cocker look.
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r184/pokoli/Lauri.jpg) (http://s144.photobucket.com/user/pokoli/media/Lauri.jpg.html)
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I think most cocker puppies be they show or working strain have more domed heads than they will as adults. and theor ears will be smaller at this age too. much of the ear length in show strain cockers is due to extra long feathering rather than ear length alone. It's why so many people buy a working strain one by 'mistake'. you really wouldn't be able to tell much at 5 weeks... I'd suggest of your mum is set on a show strain cocker that she researches good lines and reserves a puppy from a show breeder (one who actually shows their stock). as they're more likely to be 'as per breed standard' and unlikely to be mixed with any working lines. also suggest you avoid any pups advertised as show type if they have 'different' show colors like solid liver or even liver and tan as these are very often show/worker mixes. Jafare and Jumbana - commercial kennels - have had mixes in the lines to produce 'unusual colours in 'show strain' dogs because they're popular...
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ah that is v v helpful- Blueberry, the puppies look just like your Blue at 5 weeks and I suspect whoever posted about the ear length being mainly down to feathering (Emilyoliver?) has also put their finger on why I may not be seeing what I am expecting at this age. Mari- you're right, your puppy is clearly show even at 6 weeks. They are all beautiful...and the main thing is (of course!) a healthy puppy with a nice temperament.
Many thanks indeed to everyone for their most helpful advice!
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One thing for sure, if I wanted a house dog a pet for want of a better expression and I did not want to be constantly doing stuff with a dog i would not have a working cocker. So I would ensure if your wanting a show bred that it hasn't got any worker in it. Just my opinion for what its worth
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One thing for sure, if I wanted a house dog a pet for want of a better expression and I did not want to be constantly doing stuff with a dog i would not have a working cocker. So I would ensure if your wanting a show bred that it hasn't got any worker in it. Just my opinion for what its worth
Agree 100% ips. Although my show type is truly bonkers and very loud, and on top of that takes a lot of maintenance due to the coat (as I groom him myself and don't clip). Love both types, though.
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I have to agree with Pearly, I know it isn't easy to do but, if your mum wants a Show Cocker then I would find another Breader .
Like ips I wanted a "Pet" who I could take for walks and snooze on the sofa with, I know I could do this with a worker but this would only be after a very long off lead walk and when we wake up we would need to do it all again :005:
I know your mum would love the pup ether way, but the WCS and SHW dogs can be very different.
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I have to agree with Pearly, I know it isn't easy to do but, if your mum wants a Show Cocker then I would find another Breader .
This would be my advice too - if your Mum is after a puppy with 100% show lines, there are lots of breeders who could help, she doesn't have to go for a puppy with working breeding somewhere in the background ;)
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Snob, as in my profile picture , was pure show type. Don't believe people who say they they don't have the same working ethic, or are happy to laze around!
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Lots of show cockers can have high energy levels one of my best gundogs was show but most do not come any where near the energy levels that you get with a work bred WCS with lots of red ink
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Lots of show cockers can have high energy levels one of my best gundogs was show but most do not come any where near the energy levels that you get with a work bred WCS with lots of red ink
Wish someone had warned me two years ago 😁
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Lots of show cockers can have high energy levels one of my best gundogs was show but most do not come any where near the energy levels that you get with a work bred WCS with lots of red ink
Wish someone had warned me two years ago 😁
Ian I did the research before Teal acquired us and thought whats up with these people, nothing compares to a working ESS for energy BIG MISTAKE springers start to switch off at around 2 years when not working WCS don't even have a switch
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Lots of show cockers can have high energy levels one of my best gundogs was show but most do not come any where near the energy levels that you get with a work bred WCS with lots of red ink
Wish someone had warned me two years ago 😁
Ian I did the research before Teal acquired us and thought whats up with these people, nothing compares to a working ESS for energy BIG MISTAKE springers start to switch off at around 2 years when not working WCS don't even have a switch
Jeff
You could have lied in order to give me hope and said something on the lines of "FT bred wcs will calm down at the age of three" 😁
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Ha Ha in your dreams Ian, Teal is nearly 5, she has just done zoomies, jumped on me chewed my hand for 5 minutes barked at me for being a softy because I shouted ouch, thrown a tuggy toy at me repeatedly and has now followed the other half into the kitchen to steal dish cloths.
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Ha Ha in your dreams Ian, Teal is nearly 5, she has just done zoomies, jumped on me chewed my hand for 5 minutes barked at me for being a softy because I shouted ouch, thrown a tuggy toy at me repeatedly and has now followed the other half into the kitchen to steal dish cloths.
I'll ask Henry what he thinks about all this, just as soon as he wakes up.
(http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h325/rachaeldunlop/IMG_0044_zps9bruupvg.jpg) (http://s1104.photobucket.com/user/rachaeldunlop/media/IMG_0044_zps9bruupvg.jpg.html)
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Ha Ha in your dreams Ian, Teal is nearly 5, she has just done zoomies, jumped on me chewed my hand for 5 minutes barked at me for being a softy because I shouted ouch, thrown a tuggy toy at me repeatedly and has now followed the other half into the kitchen to steal dish cloths.
Don't talk to me about dishcloths, we haven't got an intact cloth of any description anymore 😁
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Ha Ha in your dreams Ian, Teal is nearly 5, she has just done zoomies, jumped on me chewed my hand for 5 minutes barked at me for being a softy because I shouted ouch, thrown a tuggy toy at me repeatedly and has now followed the other half into the kitchen to steal dish cloths.
Don't talk to me about dishcloths, we haven't got an intact cloth of any description anymore 😁
Me neither! :shades:
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We have also rekindled the ancient art of sock darning
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We have also rekindled the ancient art of sock darning
Ha, yep and what about yet undies how many of those have been ruined. The list is endless 😁