CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: michelle123 on December 31, 2006, 05:44:03 PM
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Hoping that I am not going to sound toooooo stoopid ph34r
I have noticed a few "spotty" cockers on various avatars and photos.
Also noticed on the 2 cockers found in Southend (didnt want to post on that thread as felt it was insensitive). Colin said that the dog looked "ticked" - is that the correct term for them ?
Presuming that the breeders for these are few and far between
I would be very interested in your responses - Happy New Year ;)
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Not really sure what you mean, but the difference between a roan and a ticked dog can be a little confusing sometimes. The dog in the Southland photo looks to me like a blue roan, although the very heavy dark spots are probably what is causing people to say it might be ticked. Hard to say without seein a full body pic.
In general, roaning is more "blended", the dark hair and light hair are more mixed in, where ticking is more like spots, with a definate color change. Speaking for myself most of the ticked dogs I have seen are black and whites.
As far as breeders go, color breeding in particolors is inexact, to say the least! Any particolor breeder has the potential to breed a ticked dog so theoretically they aren't all that hard to find.
There are lots of roans on this site, maybe someone will post a pic of a ticked dog!
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OMG this is so strange because I was just thinking earlier today about posting some full body shots of Alfie to get some opinions on his colouring. Basically I keep getting comments from people that they've never seen a dog his colour before and he's very unusual... I call him a light blue roan but having read comments on here recently about 'ticked' dogs I'm wondering if this describes him. He has a black mask but spotty legs, almost zebra stripes at the front, spotty sides kind of blended in and a dark roan stripe down his back. The white on his sides is almost a silvery colour, it's lovely whereas on his legs and head it's a true white...
I'll see if I can get him to stand still for some pics later on :P
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OMG this is so strange because I was just thinking earlier today about posting some full body shots of Alfie to get some opinions on his colouring. Basically I keep getting comments from people that they've never seen a dog his colour before and he's very unusual... I call him a light blue roan but having read comments on here recently about 'ticked' dogs I'm wondering if this describes him. He has a black mask but spotty legs, almost zebra stripes at the front, spotty sides kind of blended in and a dark roan stripe down his back. The white on his sides is almost a silvery colour, it's lovely whereas on his legs and head it's a true white...
I'll see if I can get him to stand still for some pics later on :P
Now you've got my curiosity up. Do post piccies! :D
With apologies to Katina, if yoou look at the "Friends will be friends" thread in "New Rogues Gallery" the dog on the right is a black and white with a teeny tiny bit of ticking--very tiny, whereas the others are very definate blue roans.
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I think you can get ticking on roans but they would still be referred to as blue roan, rather than blue roan ticked. Misty has a bit of ticking on her legs but it's not very evident now she is older and darker. I think Magic Star's Indie has quite a bit of leg ticking - but she'd still be classed as a blue roan.
Black & Whites and Liver & Whites etc differ from roans as their colours form separate blocks from each other - rather than being intermingled the way roans are. If they also have some spots ( or ticking) then they'd be classed as B&W Ticked etc.
Stevie is Orange & White Ticked - you can see the ticking on her snout. She also has a few bits on her legs and back.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v32/jimmyquiff/StevieTongue.jpg)
Not sure I've explained that very well. :lol:
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OK, here's a really good link with pics, can show it much better than I can explain it:
http://www.ecsca.org/ecscoat.html
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Right, not the best quality but might give you an idea of Alfie's coat...
Full side view
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h227/nmcclure50/SSCN1453.jpg)
Closer on legs/side
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h227/nmcclure50/SSCN1452.jpg)
Back view
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h227/nmcclure50/SSCN1451.jpg)
I think he's absolutely gorgeous but then I am a tad biased :shades: :luv: :luv: :luv:
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I think he's absolutely gorgeous but then I am a tad biased :shades: :luv: :luv: :luv:
He is gorgeous :luv:
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Pretty!
I would call that a light blue roan, since Alfie does not have any sections that are all white (or "open") The color is blended throughout his coat, and he doesn't have any "open" places.
With ticking, there is usually a lot more white space between the spotting.
It is a beautiful pattern and catches a lot of peoples eye, but it's quite common in ECs,
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OK, here's a really good link with pics, can show it much better than I can explain it:
http://www.ecsca.org/ecscoat.html
Hard to tell exactly but the Orange Roan on ther looks more of an O&W to me - or maybe an O&W Ticked. Also here in the UK there's no such thing as a Red Roan or a Red & White. The Liver & White also appears to have some ticking
I think it can sometimes be difficult for breeders to distinguish the precise colour of some of the roans/and whites/and white ticked as puppies as the colour can take a while to show through - often after they've already been registered. Also, sometime the ticking is very negligible - eg Gilly's Gracie is registered as B&W but has a very small amount of ticking.
I'm sure Jane will be along to give a good explanation. :lol:
I'd say Alfie was a light Blue Roan too.
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OK, here's a really good link with pics, can show it much better than I can explain it:
http://www.ecsca.org/ecscoat.html
Hard to tell exactly but the Orange Roan on ther looks more of an O&W to me - or maybe an O&W Ticked. Also here in the UK there's no such thing as a Red Roan.
...and the loci for Roaning is not confirmed yet afaik ::) (I put that link on a thread a few months ago, and Jane set me straight ph34r) I had to read a lot more about cocker colour genetics after absorbing the info on that site as it only presents one of several different opinions ;)
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OK, here's a really good link with pics, can show it much better than I can explain it:
http://www.ecsca.org/ecscoat.html
Hard to tell exactly but the Orange Roan on ther looks more of an O&W to me - or maybe an O&W Ticked. Also here in the UK there's no such thing as a Red Roan.
I'm sure Jane will be along to give a good explanation. :lol:
Agree, it's not the best photo, but I think I can see roaning under the white (thank god for my new monitor!)
Don't really see red roans often, but then again, we all call them orange roans anyway ph34r
I'd say Alfie was a light Blue Roan too.
oops, how does that happen that my post ended up in the purple too?? ::)
Anyway, even the ECSCA site says "There is disagreement on whether ticking is the same as roaning or not. Both can occur on the same dog, although roaning plus open marks does not."
So now that we have the OP thoroughly confused.. :005: In a nutshell, "spotty" cockers are actually very common and not at all hard to find! :lol:
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Pretty!
I would call that a light blue roan, since Alfie does not have any sections that are all white (or "open") The color is blended throughout his coat, and he doesn't have any "open" places.
With ticking, there is usually a lot more white space between the spotting.
It is a beautiful pattern and catches a lot of peoples eye, but it's quite common in ECs,
That's what I thought but I wanted to see what everyone else thought as well after reading the threads on ticking. Just curiosity really. I always describe him as a light blue roan so at least I'm not miscalling him! His mum is a very similar colour to him, his dad is a dark blue roan, as were both of his littermates.
I'd love to see a show cocker the same colour as him, the only other one I can think of on COL is Gorgeoustasha's beautiful sprocker Ollie who is Alfie's double. It would be nice to see this colour in the long show coat :luv: :luv:
Edited to say pleeeeease excuse the complete lack of grooming in those pics of Alfie, he looks like a tinker :o We were at the beach today and almost got blown away so when we got home he was towelled to within an inch of his life and had a quick ear comb but that's about it... and you can see from his face how impressed he was at being held in his 'show stance' ph34r ::) :005:
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I think he's absolutely gorgeous but then I am a tad biased :shades: :luv: :luv: :luv:
He is gorgeous :luv:
Aww thanks Jan :-* and if you look on your thread on Billy in the behaviour board you'll see what I think of him too! :luv: :005:
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The genetics side of things is a complete mystery to me - I can never make head or tail of it at all. This article is good for a description of how the various colours would be classed in the UK...
http://www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/colours.htm
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I have always thought that Fern is liver/white ticked rather than roan? What do you all say?
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f305/happydog123/IMAG0001.jpg)
'Scuse the inelegant pose. (I caught her napping for once!)
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As far as I know, the way to tell whether a dog is an 'and white' (whether heavily ticked or not) or a roan is to look at the pads on their feet, if all the pads are solid black they are a roan, if they are patched with black and pink then they are an 'and white' :blink:.
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I have always thought that Fern is liver/white ticked rather than roan? What do you all say?
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f305/happydog123/IMAG0001.jpg)
'Scuse the inelegant pose. (I caught her napping for once!)
And she's going to sleep with her rope and... tinfoil??? What is that under her head?! :005:
Of course you had to throw us a tough one! >:D :005: Her shoulders are ticked, I would say, but the rest of her is roan. Hmmm...
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As far as I know, the way to tell wether a dog is an 'and white' (whether heavily ticked or not) or a roan is to look at the pads on their feet, if all the pads are solid black they are a roan, if they are patched with black and pink then they are an 'and white' :blink:.
That's apparently true, I was going to mention that.
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I have always thought that Fern is liver/white ticked rather than roan? What do you all say?
Of course you had to throw us a tough one! >:D :005: Her shoulders are ticked, I would say, but the rest of her is roan. Hmmm...
:lol: I'd lean towards Liver roan too... I think. :lol:
I think it can be harder sometimes to tell the difference with workers as they tend to have less coat than their show cousins - so the roaning on the back can sometimes appear to look like ticking ( Fern appears to have both roaning and ticking). Either way, both Fern and Alfie have beautiful markings. :shades:
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And she's going to sleep with her rope and... tinfoil??? What is that under her head?! :005:
:o Do you mind -that's her Christmas pressy! (It does look rather like tinfoil in the pic though ;) .The rope and now 'pup' are her constant companions :005:
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f305/happydog123/IMAG0002.jpg)
Of course you had to throw us a tough one! >:D :005: Her shoulders are ticked, I would say, but the rest of her is roan. Hmmm...
Her other side is completely different ::) :P
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Oops, sorry, I didn't mean to insult Ferns baby! ph34r :005: I couldn't tell from the pic what that was.
Goofy lot of mine would sleep with their heads on tinfoil I think! ::)
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Agreed; both Fern & Alfie have very attractive markings. ;)
Also, sometime the ticking is very negligible - eg Gilly's Gracie is registered as B&W but has a very small amount of ticking.
Domino is more like Gracie; he is B&W but does have a minimal amount of ticking on his legs & on the white patches on his body.
(http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b238/josie52/DSCF0768x.jpg)
They're all gorgeous,whatever colour they are!!! :shades:
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my ellie is a liver and white but she only has two biggish liver patches one on her eye and the other on her back.she has lots of ticking.so much so that when she was little poeple often asked if she was a liver dalmation puppy :005:
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Any particolor breeder has the potential to breed a ticked dog so theoretically they aren't all that hard to find.
Not strictly true - you only get "and white ticked" pups if both parents carry for this pattern. We currently have three orange & white ticked Cockers and one black & white ticked (all belonging to the same family) but our other blue roan line (different family) never produces ticked pups or "and white" pups because the gene isn't there. I know quite a few particolour breeders who only ever produce roans for this reason. In recent years, the broken colours (including "and white ticked") haven't been so common in UK show lines but there seem to be a few more about now which is nice to see :D
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Yes Gracie B&W ticked but you really have to look hard to see the ticks, she has about 5 little ticks apart from the couple on her face, it's a fine line between B&W & B&W ticked with Gracie.
(http://www.glowstar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/gracie5.JPG[email][/email])
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but are they registered ticked or just black and white or liver and white etc?
ellie is registered as just liver and white.
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Also here in the UK there's no such thing as a Red Roan or a Red & White.
When we were looking for Bailey (from the US), I had been inquiring about Red Roan and Red & White as well b/c we had seen the pics. None of the breeders I talked to knew of anyone who had those and thought I was nuts. I think they are technically a possibility, but doesn't seem like many people breed or have them, even in the States
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but are they registered ticked or just black and white or liver and white etc?
ellie is registered as just liver and white.
Fern is registered as liver/white. I expect the ticking/roaning wasn't obvious as a young pup.
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but are they registered ticked or just black and white or liver and white etc?
ellie is registered as just liver and white.
Fern is registered as liver/white. I expect the ticking/roaning wasn't obvious as a young pup.
Alfie is registered as a blue roan. He was very, very light as a pup, his body was almost pure white :luv:
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doesn't the colouring of the pads when they are born tell if they are roans or something??? or was I told a load of tripe :005:
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doesn't the colouring of the pads when they are born tell if they are roans or something??? or was I told a load of tripe :005:
Cayley mentioned this earlier in the thread ;) "And whites" are born with totally pink pads and even when adult, some pink will remain on the pads of "and whites"/"and white tickeds" (you have to look hard for it sometimes on ticked dogs) Adult roans however will never have pink on their pads although when born, you will see some pink on the light roans to begin with which gradually disappears.
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Black & Whites look like little pink pigs when they are born :005: Gracie is registered as a B&W although I did register some from that litter as B&W ticked but hers wasn't obvious for months. I've never hearde of a red roan...don't you mean Orange Roan ?
Spot the Blue Roan in this picture
http://www.glowstar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/Butty%20babies%2022.8.05%20008.jpg (http://www.glowstar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/Butty%20babies%2022.8.05%20008.jpg)
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Ohhh jus found this thread as Colin mentioned Indie has quite spotty legs, i'll post a pic in a few minutes :D
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Gilly, if I pm you my address would you mind awfully packaging all of those gorgeous pups up & posting them to me straight away :005: :005: They are beautiful :luv:
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gilly whilst your doing that you can post gracie to me please.
any new pictures of her by any chance?
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Heres Indies body after a clipping, shes quite spotty on her body there, yet she grows back quite dark :luv:
Sorry pic quality isn't that great ph34r
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j40/BBJunkie/IM001707.jpg
Heres a better one of her paws,
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j40/BBJunkie/IM001934.jpg
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Black & Whites look like little pink pigs when they are born :005: Gracie is registered as a B&W although I did register some from that litter as B&W ticked but hers wasn't obvious for months. I've never hearde of a red roan...don't you mean Orange Roan ?
Spot the Blue Roan in this picture
http://www.glowstar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/Butty%20babies%2022.8.05%20008.jpg (http://www.glowstar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/Butty%20babies%2022.8.05%20008.jpg)
The blue roan is feasting while the others sleep! :005:
Can I just smell them? ph34r I love the smell of baby puppies! :luv:
A red roan is pictured in the link I posted, you hardly ever see them aand everyone calls them oranges anyway.
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My Sophie was what I would call 'ticked' more of a definite spot than Zacs blue roan markings.
I would post a pic but I am at work but you can see pics of Sopie on my website as below
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The one with the little black bit on it's shoulder lying at the front is Gracie :luv: no puppy smell anymore I'm afraid as they are all grown up :angel: I haven't really got any updated pics of her at the moment Lyn :blink:
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doesn't the colouring of the pads when they are born tell if they are roans or something??? or was I told a load of tripe :005:
Cayley mentioned this earlier in the thread ;) "And whites" are born with totally pink pads and even when adult, some pink will remain on the pads of "and whites"/"and white tickeds" (you have to look hard for it sometimes on ticked dogs) Adult roans however will never have pink on their pads although when born, you will see some pink on the light roans to begin with which gradually disappears.
sorry I missed that bit ::) George does have little pink patches on his pads, but he has ticked legs and muzzle and is B/W.
ahh I was distracted by Happy dogs pic :005:
So presumably breeders can use that to help determine what they register the dogs as.
The different interpretations of colours is really fascinating, I gather that some would have called Harmy a Liver roan. I have to say chocolate sounds nicer, but if I'd been told he was liver roan, I'd have accepted that.
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So is Indie a definate blue roan or a ticked, anyone know?
Not that it matters, just nosey :005:
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Hi, Peggy is from the descriptions above Black, white ticked and tan, however, she has black pads as far as she'd let me look (she doesn't like her feet being touched (hence long feet hair...............)
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o263/MaryP54/Peggy.jpg
She has patches of pure white, but has 'freckles' on her legs, face and tummy, with the very occasional other 'freckle' elsewhere.
She's a pf breeding girlie from MT so we'll not be able to ask a breeder!
Here she is when we first got her alseep on top of Tia! :luv:
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o263/MaryP54/TiaandPeggyonsofa.jpg
Just to add the 'pinkish' tinge on her legs and chest is a VERY pale tan which darkens when wet ::)
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I am at home now this was my spotty cocker
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/grannynic/soph.jpg)
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(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a87/kennelprettyflowers/ryhmarama.jpg)
Starting from left: orange&white, black&white ticked, light blue, dark blue
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So is Indie a definate blue roan or a ticked, anyone know?
Not that it matters, just nosey :005:
She's a lovely blue roan :D
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She's a lovely blue roan :D
Awww thanks Jane :D
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Charlie has a spotty nose :D i think it makes him look cheeky.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a12/Abilou/Charlie_AbilouStarlightoflunetta.jpg)
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Charlie has a spotty nose :D i think it makes him look cheeky.
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a12/Abilou/Charlie_AbilouStarlightoflunetta.jpg)
I love his tan spots on his legs :luv: