CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Genetics & Breeding => Topic started by: Cathy on January 11, 2004, 10:42:37 AM
-
Hi, My partner and I are currently loking for a cocker puppie. Please can someone tell us of the difference between puppies reared in the back yard in kennels, or of those reared in the home. I am a little concerned as i do not know what to expect from either, and yet the breeders are always telling me there puppies are on or thr other. any help would be appeciated
-
Hi, My partner and I are currently loking for a cocker puppie. Please can someone tell us of the difference between puppies reared in the back yard in kennels, or of those reared in the home. I am a little concerned as i do not know what to expect from either, and yet the breeders are always telling me there puppies are on or thr other. any help would be appeciated
Hi Alan, my pup was home reared, which meant he'd had experience of loud noises like the hoover, kids(breeder had 3) and was socialised with a lot of people.
I think the problem is if you get a puppy from a puppy farmer - you see adverts in papers saying choice of - and then 15 different breeds, or can deliver- again a bad sign. You should be able to see your pup and the mum in a home environment, and making sure they are KC registered means the bitch isn't bred ALL the time purely for profit like some unscrupulous puppy farmers do, KC registration means that only a litter a year can be registered.(Up to a certain amount, I think 3 but don't quote me on that). Also, you avoid inherited defects that can be very costly to fix - our pup unfortunately has a cataract which will cost over £800 to fix, we were lucky and our breeder refunded us, but if this happened with a puppy farm you'd have little chance of that.
I've only been here a short time, so I'm sure some of the experienced members of the board will be able to advise you more on this, but welcome to the board,
Shona
-
Thank you for that reply.
This breeder has come recomended from a contact via the kennel club, who uses his dogs to mate with. I would not contemplate buying from a puppy farm, i have to say i didn't acutally think it was a farm. i am going to view the puppies next week. the breeder has been very strict with instructions, and asked me a lot of questions.
-
Hi Alan,
If the breeder asks a lot of questions, thats a good sign :D It means they care about their puppies and the homes that they will be going to. Two of my cockers were reared in kennels and one was home reared - and you can tell the difference :wink: Vegas was used to children and all the various hustle and bustle of a household and with all the socialisation I gave him, he is a very confident dog(but not in a bolshy way :wink: ). Dallas was reared in kennels and while he has a fantastic temperament, he is not quite as confident as Vegas and is a bit more wary about new things. Hopefully, if the pups you are going to visit are reared in kennels, the breeder will still have spent time socialising them. And don't be afraid to ask them either - I'm sure they will appreciate that you have the pups best interest at heart. When you see the pups in either enviroment, just make sure that they are quite confident, happy to see you and not hanging back as this can be a sign of a very nervous pup. Let us know how you get on next week :)
-
KC registration isn't a guarantee that the puppies have been bred by a reputable breeder. Plenty of puppy farmers use the KC system I'm afraid :( The KC does not allow commercial breeders to advertise their litters on their Puppy list which means that the breeders on the list must have fewer than 5 litters a year. Commercial breeders cannot register more than one litter from a bitch during a 12 month period but non-commercial breeders can! Confusing isn't it?
As Shona says, "home-reared" is a term used by all sorts of puppy outlets, from highly reputable breeders to large scale commercial breeders. It basically means that pups have been reared on the premises and not bought in for resale by a dealer. Ideally, puppies should be reared in the house so they get used to all sorts of household noises & meet as wide a variety of people as possible. However, that is not to say that puppies kept outside for some of the time means the breeder is not reputable - what counts is the care taken over the puppies & the efforts made to socialise them. There is some info on how to spot a reputable breeder in our FAQ section here :http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/forum/viewt...opic.php?t=2019 (http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2019)
Make sure that any litter you look at comes from eye-tested parents & don't believe any excuses eg that only show breeders eye-test so they can charge more for their pups (a COL member was told this not so long ago by one breeder)
-
:) Hi Alan
Welcome to COL if you are looking for tips and advise on getting a cocker and bringing up a puppy, then you have come to the right place! I would echoe what Shona has said really :) When we were searching for our pup Indie, I would only consider home reared pups. Again as Shona said they are more used to noises and kids and people in general. Its a good sign that the breeder is asking you questions, equally feel free to ask the breeder any questions you may have too! Most reputable breeders would make it a condition that if for whatever reason, you can no longer keep the pup/dog than you return it to them, this type of condition I feel this offers reassurance that the breeder has the pups best interest at heart!
There is a whole section on the message board in Q and A's that covers this in full, it makes interesting reading and if you are new to dogs, its a must!!
Best of luck and keep us posted :)
EDITED TO SAY, Gills and Janes posts where not there when I typed this! Sorry for any repetitions!!
-
Make sure that any litter you look at comes from eye-tested parents & don't believe any excuses eg that only show breeders eye-test so they can charge more for their pups (a COL member was told this not so long ago by one breeder)
I would second this!! My breeder was a first time breeder and to be honest she was brilliant!! However, Indies dad was eye tested, but when I queried about her mum, I got told that as her mum was from the same lineage as the dad, it wasn't necessary :? I accepted this as I didn't know any better and had already fell for little Indie, however another member of COL did say that she still should have been tested, so this is something I do worry about and if/when we get another I will make sure that both parents are tested.
-
Personally I wouldn't get a pup from someone either who's just having one litter as they think think their cocker is cute and it'd be such a shame for her not to have one litter before she's spayed (and they've met someone on their walks who's got a lovely cocker boy so why not)!
-
Personally I wouldn't get a pup from someone either who's just having one litter as they think think their cocker is cute and it'd be such a shame for her not to have one litter before she's spayed (and they've met someone on their walks who's got a lovely cocker boy so why not)!
Can I ask why? If they are responsible, and have the room, and both parents are clear of diseases?
-
I think what Penny is trying to get across here(and correct me if I'm wrong) is that in these sort of cases, there will most probably be no reserach done on pedigrees to see if the two dogs are compatible. I have overheard a few people talking about mating their bitches with a nice looking dog along the road and when questioned about their pedigrees, they don't have a clue :roll: The chances are that the dogs won't have had the necessary health tests done either.
My Vegas is from a pet bitch but her breeder helped her by checking over the pedigrees to see if the two dogs would complement one another. So, I'm not necessarily against pet bitches being bred from as long as they still do the necessary research/tests and have the back-up and help from a knowledgable person and don't just go with the first dog they come across :wink:
-
Personally I wouldn't get a pup from someone either who's just having one litter as they think think their cocker is cute and it'd be such a shame for her not to have one litter before she's spayed (and they've met someone on their walks who's got a lovely cocker boy so why not)!
:) Indies mum was a pet cocker but her dad is a show dog, Indies mums owner did a lot of research with the help of Indies dads owner, who has her own kennels etc. Indies mum was from the same lineage as her dad, where breeding for health/temperament is of paramount importance!! :) I agree with you to a point about maybe just breeding a pet with another pet, and both not having much information or breeding background :? But having said that, all breeders have to start somewhere :wink: as long as they go into it with their eyes wide open and take the guidance from other breeders and their vet and of course are doing it for reasons other that £'s then I can't see what the problem is :wink:
Personaly I would much much prefer to get a dog that has been brought up in a loving home environment and had the absolute best start in life with regards to socialisation/weaning etc, then to maybe get a pup from a breeder who keeps the pups in kennels outside :? Just my personal opinion on my experience with Indie, you would not believe the diet my breeder had her on, it must have cost her a fortune! Yes she was first time breeder, I did have a concern with the eye test, but other than this, she gave those pups the absolute best start in life :) Having said about her mum not being eye tested, if she was eye tested it still does not guarantee that Indies eyes will be fine, so I am not going to lose to much sleep over that :wink: Indie has such a lovely temperament, she is brilliant with the kids and other dogs, she is not nervous or too pushy :D
If I get another dog, and the lady was breeding another litter (which she isn't) I would have absolotely no hesitation in going back to her :) I found her through the KC, she did no advertising whatsoever and asked me as many questions as I did her :) But then I can see your point of view also, for every one good novice breeder I can imagine there will be a bad one too :?
-
Yes Gill you got it in one. I agree breeders have to start somewhere but I'm talking about your one off litter just for the hell of it! I have heard so many times how they're going to mate with the dog down the road just because they're bitch is cute (I didn't know cuteness was a basis for breeding sensibly) and then get the bitch spayed.
Sometimes they think that a bitch must have a litter before they are spayed as its cruel not to.
They also have this idea about getting families just like theirs to take on the pups until I point out what about if they need to rehome the pup—answer, oh that'll never happen (because they don't believe cockers ever end up in rescue).
Just because its home breeding doesn't mean that this way is responsible breeding if the 'breeder' isn't bothered who they mate their dog with and don't give the new owner any back up of help.
-
Just because its home breeding doesn't mean that this way is responsible breeding if the 'breeder' isn't bothered who they mate their dog with and don't give the new owner any back up of help.
Absolutely right - whilst everyone has to start somewhere, there's a huge difference between the first time breeder who takes months researching pedigrees & finding out as much as they about what breeding involves & the type that just breed on impulse using the dog down the road or the dog they met in the park last week :roll: They don't have a clue about hereditary diseases or even basic colour genetics sometimes! I have had stud enquiries from pet bitch owners who do not even know what their dog's pedigree is when I ask about it & who don't see the need to bother with eye-testing because they only want to breed pet Cockers for their friends :roll: Quite depressing really :(
-
Absolutely right - whilst everyone has to start somewhere, there's a huge difference between the first time breeder who takes months researching pedigrees & finding out as much as they about what breeding involves & the type that just breed on impulse using the dog down the road or the dog they met in the park last week :roll: They don't have a clue about hereditary diseases or even basic colour genetics sometimes! I have had stud enquiries from pet bitch owners who do not even know what their dog's pedigree is when I ask about it & who don't see the need to bother with eye-testing because they only want to breed pet Cockers for their friends :roll: Quite depressing really :(
Yes Jane it is quite depressing I agree with you, I know the kind you are talking about, I myself have had people ask me already, if I intend to have a litter of pups from Indie, just because she is cute :roll: :cry: Of course she is cute, all cockers are, but I have no intentions to breed from her, I will leave that to the professionals :) It seems though thats its exactly these people who would go and buy from the BIG commercial shops, for want of a better word :? I think its just down to a lack of knowledge and education on the whole buying a puppy subject, thats why its good that breeders like yourself and other members of the board, can offer information and advise on message boards, such as this :) Hopefully with more and more people having access to the internet, we can start getting through to a wider section of potentional puppy owners :)
-
..
-
I think what Penny is trying to get across here(and correct me if I'm wrong) is that in these sort of cases, there will most probably be no reserach done on pedigrees to see if the two dogs are compatible. I have overheard a few people talking about mating their bitches with a nice looking dog along the road and when questioned about their pedigrees, they don't have a clue :roll: The chances are that the dogs won't have had the necessary health tests done either.
My Vegas is from a pet bitch but her breeder helped her by checking over the pedigrees to see if the two dogs would complement one another. So, I'm not necessarily against pet bitches being bred from as long as they still do the necessary research/tests and have the back-up and help from a knowledgable person and don't just go with the first dog they come across :wink:
Yes, I realise that. I just felt it was rather a large generalisation to make. There are I'm sure, bad *professional* breeders, as well as bad *first time* breeders. Good breeding isn't mutually exclusive to the pros.
I got my boy from a home situation, and like Emma said below, personally I liked the fact he'd been very well socialised with children, and was used to household noise. If all the tests are done, and pedigrees thoroughly researched, then it's a level playing field, even *professional* breeders have to start somewhere. :wink:
Shona
-
I wasn't against home breeders per se its just that you will should check out the motives of those that home breed as I meet too many who are doing it for all the wrong reasons, when it should be about what's best for the breed. I got my pups from a home breeder, but one who also shows cockers and has done so for the past 20 years.
And then you've got the so-called home breeders who are actually puppy dealers (or working for them) from the puppy farms. They call themelves home breeders as that's what more people want these days. Yet another reason to really check who you are getting your puppy from.
-
Just wanted to add that 'professional' is the wrong word to be used I think - I doubt any experienced, reputable breeder would consider themselves 'professional' breeders... whereas commercial breeders might just :wink:
-
I wasn't against home breeders per se its just that you will should check out the motives of those that home breed as I meet too many who are doing it for all the wrong reasons, when it should be about what's best for the breed. I got my pups from a home breeder, but one who also shows cockers and has done so for the past 20 years.
And then you've got the so-called home breeders who are actually puppy dealers (or working for them) from the puppy farms. They call themelves home breeders as that's what more people want these days. Yet another reason to really check who you are getting your puppy from.
:) Hi Penny
I can see where you are coming from, but, I would say and this goes for any breed, that just because people show dogs it doesn't necessarily mean, that they are doing it for the right motives either :? I know this is a contraversial comment to make, but I live in the real world :wink: There are "good" and "bad" in every profession and that goes for everything including dog breeders and that goes from the man on the street who has one litter right upto the breeders/showers, at the end of the day when it comes down to it, people are people and make mistakes and I cannot see that every first time breeder is bad, or that every show breeder is good :)
I know you weren't suggesting that our pups where from a puppy farm supplier, but, I would like to say that there is absolutely no way on this earth I would get a pup from someone like that, I travelled a 4 hour round trip to get my pup, where I could have just looked in Loot and got one locally :roll: I have more intelligence than that :)
Jane what you said about the KC register is right too, when I was looking for Indie I got a number off there, and it was quite local to me, the lady said that her male dog had got at her bitch who was in season :shock: when I asked when the pups were ready she said NOW, oh I said how old are they, her reply 6 weeks!!!! :shock: :shock: I put down the phone in disgust and it did take a toll on my consience as I just wanted to go and rescue the pups :cry: So like Penny and Jane have said do your homework thoroughly :) There are some excellent breeders out there, who's main concern is for the breed and for the pups welfare :) Its just a small minority who spoil it at times.
-
Just wanted to add that 'professional' is the wrong word to be used I think - I doubt any experienced, reputable breeder would consider themselves 'professional' breeders... whereas commercial breeders might just :wink:
Quite right Mike - I prefer to use the words "responsible" or "reputable", words which can apply just as well to a first-time breeder doing all the right things as to someone who's been doing it for years.
-
So.... basically.. it doesn't really matter which as long as the breeder is reputable ? i am visiting their home next week, so i will see what happens.
Thanks for all your help.
-
So.... basically.. it doesn't really matter which as long as the breeder is reputable ? i am visiting their home next week, so i will see what happens.
Thanks for all your help.
No Alan personally I don't think it does make much difference. The tiny differences there are in my experience aren't anything to worry about.
I've got two: one that was from a kennel and one that was reared at home. They were both scared of the vacuum cleaner and hair dryer the first time I switched them on. They were both nervous about sirens and other 'household' noises (not that a siren is household but you know what I mean!!) I live on a busy main road and the first time I took them out for a walk and there were huge lorries going passed with squeaky brakes did scare them but they're now used to it. Neither was better at being house trained than the other. They are both naughty! :wink:
The one that is from a kennel is very independent and I have no problem leaving her on her own. The other one is very lively and likes to be with you all the time if she can. Sometimes I think it stems from always being around humans right from birth. However there is absolutely no way of knowing for sure if it's just in her genes and had she been bred in a kennel that she would have been any different. :?:
You're absolutely right in saying that you just have to be happy that the breeder is reputable and in addition to everything else has done everything reasonable to socialise the puppy up until you take it home. You then have the responsibility to take over socialisation to ensure that the puppy is well adjusted but you know that already!
Hope you get on ok next week.
Loraine :)
-
I know you weren't suggesting that our pups where from a puppy farm supplier, but, I would like to say that there is absolutely no way on this earth I would get a pup from someone like that, I travelled a 4 hour round trip to get my pup, where I could have just looked in Loot and got one locally :roll: I have more intelligence than that :)
I think intelligence is the wrong word here !!! It is more down to knowledge i think !!!! Unfortunately puppy farmers can have many disguises !!! And some of the puppy farm pups are still kc regd !!!!
There is every possibility that Beano could be from a puppy farm !!! :shock: Unfortunately i wasnt well up on the breeding side of things! I did research the cocker temperament and characteristics !!! And a lot of people dont know about the show side of things or the breeding side of things as they are just pet owners !!!!
That is why sites like this are invaluable and i only wish i didnt look for a cocker site after i got Beano and had done before!!! But alas this is sometimes the case with people !!!! I would never for one minute or have, regretted getting Beano , he is so perfect in every way !!!!
Unforuneately as there are pups advertised in Loot that are KC regd, people just assume that they are from good sources !!!!
Exam wise i am very very intelligent !!! Just wasnt mega knowledgeable on the dog side !!!!!! :lol:
-
One way to counteract lack of socializing pups or continuation of socializing is from day 1 you get your pup carry them everywhere you can. Don't wait until you can put them on a lead and put them down on the ground before they 'meet' traffic/busy road—carry them along while you walk along the pavement and get them used to the sights sounds and smells that way. I think the only things my pups had never seen were umbrellas—I got them during a very dry spell and so no rain. But between 8 weeks and when they could go down on the ground they went to fairgrounds, train/bus stations, high street window shopping, travelled in cars/buses/trains, agricultural shows, met people of different shapes and sizes (incl. people and their wheelchairs and kids in prams), the list was endless and good fun.
-
I wasn't against home breeders per se its just that you will should check out the motives of those that home breed as I meet too many who are doing it for all the wrong reasons, when it should be about what's best for the breed. I got my pups from a home breeder, but one who also shows cockers and has done so for the past 20 years.
And then you've got the so-called home breeders who are actually puppy dealers (or working for them) from the puppy farms. They call themelves home breeders as that's what more people want these days. Yet another reason to really check who you are getting your puppy from.
Penny, I don't understand your point - you said earlier that home breeders didn't do their research, and then you are saying your home breeder was ok because she showed? It seems to support my original assertion that home breeders can be reputable, just as some can't. :?:
Like I said before, there are good breeders of both persuasions.
-
Just wanted to add that 'professional' is the wrong word to be used I think - I doubt any experienced, reputable breeder would consider themselves 'professional' breeders... whereas commercial breeders might just :wink:
Yes, that's why I put the word in asterisks, I was pretty sure it would be the wrong one to use. :wink:
-
I know you did Shona - I just wanted to mention it in context of the original question for Alan, that if any breeder refers to themselves as 'professional', whether they rear their pups indoors or out, it's usually a sign to avoid them as they're probably a commercial outfit. I was on a small business forum not long ago and someone posted a question along the lines of "I want to set up in business as a professional dog breeder" :(
Sam, nice to see you back, hope Beano is doing well :wink:
-
Thanks Mike :D
Beano is doing fine !!!! Very hairy and cheeky but very fine and spoiled !!!!! :lol:
Hope yours are well too ?
-
Re: "Penny, I don't understand your point - you said earlier that home breeders didn't do their research, and then you are saying your home breeder was ok because she showed? It seems to support my original assertion that home breeders can be reputable, just as some can't. "
I didn't say home breeders don't do their research but that I have met a lot of breeders who don't and they are also home breeders. I was trying to highlight that this area isn't as black and white as some think and that just because someone says that their pups are home bred doesn't mean that it is always good, just as kennels aren't always bad.
I was suggesting that there are home breeders and there are home breeders, some research (and go into breeding properly) some don't but the most important thing is that one should assertain which do and which don't. I was trying to outline that just because someone says they are home breeders please watch out for those that have done little more than mate their cute bitch with the bloke's dog they met on the park sort of thing (and I mean those can just be the only motives for breeding—I have a dog he/she has a dog let's get together) or the conman (or woman) who's trying to sell you a package of home breeding when they are nothing more than puppy dealers! Look at some of the free ads that say home breeding and then look again to make sure they are not just part of a puppy farm network in disguise.
There are home breeders though that as the label says they breed from home and they've researched what they are doing and breed some lovely healthy sociable dogs that don't have any health defects, etc.
I only gave one example of achieving the best out of a breed by using showing and it was that an example (and it just so happens to have been what my dogs' breeder also does).
I'm not against home breeders at all but I think we have to keep are eyes open and be aware of how the world is (thankfully my vet gives this lecture to all his clients who are thinking of buying a pedigree pup as he's fed up of seeing pedigree dogs with lots of health and behavioural problems).
As and aside it is such a shame then that some get pups from home breeders who've carefully bred the pups and socialized as far as they can for the age of that pup in the home and then the new owner doesn't bother to socialize their new pup when they get them (as they think they are socialized enough). You're then left with a dog who hasn't the foggiest idea about other dogs etc., but at least its not scared of the washing machine or vaccuum cleaner!