Breeding And Money

[LouiseH]

One more consideration.......average £650.00 should a bitch need a C Section.

Tracey

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Then the chances of pups surviving is reduced  

Louise

[PennyB]

I understand why you posted this Claire  

But at the same time and I know I may be rail roaded for saying this , but nobody forces anyone of you to breed, you all do it out of choice surely?  So why moan about the costs, if its so bad, don't do it!   Its hopefully because your passionate about the breed and want to create dogs as close to the breed standard as possible , (I think) which is of course commendable and I applaud anyone who breeds sensibly and carfeully, as the more good breeders we have the less likely people will go to puppy farms (hopefully)    At the end of the day, we need good responsible breeders, i'm not sure why it matters how much things cost, if you are passionate enough to want to breed, then I think its something that has to be looked into before any mating is done!

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Claire wasn't moaning about breeding she was pointing out how much it costs to breed a decent litter. More of an enlightening exercise for those who think its a quick easy buck to make. Some people think it does matter how much things cost but will go ahead anyway and cut corners accordingly.

[Jane S]

I can see where both Clare & Emma are coming from but the fact is most breeders do not incur the sort of costs listed - these are the costs breeders who are dedicated to their breed & doing the right thing will incur. Such breeders are in the minority as any look at the KC litter registrations shows (never mind the hundreds of unregistered litters). I'm in two minds about this thread - of course people need to realise that breeding responsibly costs a lot (not just financially but in terms of time & commitment) but we shouldn't give the impression that Clare's experience is the norm because it just isn't. It's not just puppy farmers who profit from their trade - there are hundreds of "small" backyard breeders who breed without doing most of the things a dedicated breeder would do & still ask the same price for their puppies as a reputable breeder It's quite depressing at the moment as Cocker litter registrations are going up & up but it's not the reputable breeders who are breeding more litters - quite the opposite. Another depressing thing is the vast number of puppy enquiries which ask only whether you have any puppies & how much they are. It's no wonder the less reputable puppy producers have no trouble selling their litters if so many would-be puppy buyers are only interested in the price! Just having a moan there as I've had a spate of those type of enquiries lately

Jane

[Mary]

It's quite depressing at the moment as Cocker litter registrations are going up & up but it's not the reputable breeders who are breeding more litters - quite the opposite.

Jane

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Yes, it's a sad situation but one that must be happening in alot of breeds.  I've lost count of the number of people who ask me if I will be breeding from Lottie and that do I know how much I could get for a litter

One person I know has not long owned a Staffy.  When I asked her if she was keeping her entire I was met by the usual 'We're going to breed her cos we can make £700 a puppy.  That'll mean we can go to Florida next year'   I'm sure others of you hear similar responses all the time.

[suzysu]

One more consideration.......average £650.00 should a bitch need a C Section.

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[LouiseH]

I can see where both Clare & Emma are coming from but the fact is most breeders do not incur the sort of costs listed - these are the costs breeders who are dedicated to their breed & doing the right thing will incur. Such breeders are in the minority as any look at the KC litter registrations shows (never mind the hundreds of unregistered litters). I'm in two minds about this thread - of course people need to realise that breeding responsibly costs a lot (not just financially but in terms of time & commitment) but we shouldn't give the impression that Clare's experience is the norm because it just isn't. It's not just puppy farmers who profit from their trade - there are hundreds of "small" backyard breeders who breed without doing most of the things a dedicated breeder would do & still ask the same price for their puppies as a reputable breeder It's quite depressing at the moment as Cocker litter registrations are going up & up but it's not the reputable breeders who are breeding more litters - quite the opposite. Another depressing thing is the vast number of puppy enquiries which ask only whether you have any puppies & how much they are. It's no wonder the less reputable puppy producers have no trouble selling their litters if so many would-be puppy buyers are only interested in the price! Just having a moan there as I've had a spate of those type of enquiries lately

Jane

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Jane

They are probably the same people that have contacted us lately, I had one enquiry for a "spaniel puppy" and they had no idea there were even different types, never mind what to look for in a good breeder or what questions to ask.

I think this thread will be useful for people looking for reputable breeders as it will give them ideas about what to look for and what questions to ask and what to include in their research, not only to put people off from breeding.

I was only speaking to a stud dog owner last week who is now requesting ALL visiting bitches to be optigen tested as her dog is B1, experienced breeders and first time breeders included. So I think ALL the things on the list are things to consider, whether a breeder chooses to have them or not, if you are a considering breeding a litter you must consider them.

The majority of puppy people I turn away end up with puppy-farm or commercially bred puppies regardless of how much I steer them away because their circumstances are not suitable for a puppy so they HAVE to get one from an establishment like this that asks no questions etc etc. I don't see that there really is a solution to stop people breeding for profit.

The real problem is when so-called reputable breeders (this one a Champ show judge in more than 1 breed) telephone me up and give me a "what-for" because I advised a puppy-purchaser against buying a puppy from a breeder who did not eye test, this upset me considerably and turned some local cocker-people against me because if it, all this when you just try and do the right thing...you can't win, and Jane is right, there are few breeders who do do everything by the book, fewer than you think.

[Magic Star]

I think I probably should have found a better word to use then "moan"   (sorry)   Of course I appreciate the costs involved and I do have every respect for people that do it properly, I hand on heart do, so please don't take that I was having a go   I'm just not sure you can add up the cost of producing puppies, as the costs can no doubt be as much as you like or as little as needed depending on the breeder, the latter being the obvious unscrupulous breeder  

I think sometimes, breeders do feel that people think they earn vast amounts of money from breeding, which of course isn't always the case, but can be as Jane pointed out.  I don't think any responsible breeder should have to feel they have to justify the cost of a pup, you can't put a price on love, devotion and dedication, that in itself is priceless

[Mary]

I don't think any responsible breeder should have to feel they have to justify the cost of a pup, you can't put a price on love, devotion and dedication, that in itself is priceless

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Totally agree Emma

[Cob-Web]

I think, unfortunately, the increase coverage of Crufts and the dog show world in general has led to an increase in the number of people who think dog breeding is a trendy thing to do  
A number of people (including my FIL - who is not Molos biggest fan by any means   ) suggested that we should stud Molo after they saw and read coverage of The Show.
 Typical comments included:
"do you know you can get "£100's if you let him do his stuff with the ladies"
The weekend newspaper supplements ran interviews with a number of 'breeders' and presented the positives of breeding and showing, with little in the way of reality creeping in  


I have been involved in debates before regarding families who end up with commercially bred puppies because they have been turned down by dedicated, reputable breeders, and I don't intend to resurrect that particular thread  ::  - BUT, I passionately believe that if a person chooses to breed dogs as a hobby that they are committed to, then that comes with a wider responsibility to the specific breed and all dogs in general  

[*-Nikki-*]

Not sure if this thread will be 100% helpful - but sure does give an insight into breeding and the cost of doing so correctly.
I'm sure sometimes people forget how much heartache breeders are put through tho   .

[Sue H]

Can anyone just set themselves up as a 'breeder' ?  I only ask because in all the above costings, I don't see any licensing fee or anyone having any trouble registering as a breeder to begin with.  Do you need a license and if so, from whom, and how is it regulated ?

The breeder from whom we bought Bramble, who has a pedigree, testing etc etc, had the most horrendous kennels with a sort of waste ground between them and the house which was strewn with broken bottles, old screwdrivers, opened tins with the lids hanging off .....We just couldn't wait to get him away from there !!

I suggest that we push for legislation to outlaw the people who simply keep on producing litters which have genetic defects and/or are not subjected to the same criteria that we now know to be very sensible when selcting a healthy pup, whether it be as a family pet or for working or showing.  Their first few weeks are very important, and the home circumstances of the putative breeder should be taken into account when alloting licences - there should definitely be some responsible governing body when it comes to allowing just anyone to set up as a breeder.  I have twice the space and potentially twice the time and am centrally situated - but - I just would not start out on something like that unless I knew a whole lot more about it.  Others are not quite as civic minded though ...

All the animal charities try to promote responsible pet ownership, but having worked for the Blue Cross, I must have heard nearly all the reasons why (a) people want to have a dog, and ( why people need to re-home a dog.

Maybe we can all prevail on our newly elected (or re-elected) MP's to do something about it which will stop these puppy farms etc ....

Any bright ideas ??!!

[Annette]

Another depressing thing is the vast number of puppy enquiries which ask only whether you have any puppies & how much they are.

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I agree with most of what's been said, but in our innocence we probably started with those questions when we started looking for Buddy.

For a start, we had no idea what sort of price we might expect to pay, so wanted to sort out our finances. Having no-one else to ask at that point.

Also, we really didn't know about puppy farming or commercial breeding, honestly! Having never owned a dog as an adult, why would we?

We were very fortunate in that one of the breeders we contacted is a responsible breeder, and a COL member. She had no pups but put us in touch with another responsible breeder (and COL member!) who then linked us up with our breeder and our lovely little boy.

I have to say that I originally thought money must be the main reason for breeding, but having visited our lovely breeder three times, and talking with her many more times we soon realised that there was little or no financial gain for her. Certainly not at a good hourly rate!

I consider that we are pretty well-educated, well-read people, but we honestly knew nothing about the hazards we might face trying to find a puppy. And I know that some other members were in the same situation, and that some, sadly, have found out the hard way!

I wonder what we can do to make this more widely known?


Knowing what I know now, I'm not sure that I would go for a puppy again, I'm so saddened by the fate of the discarded puppy farm girls. You never know, we might add to our number one day!

[Jane S]

Another depressing thing is the vast number of puppy enquiries which ask only whether you have any puppies & how much they are.

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I agree with most of what's been said, but in our innocence we probably started with those questions when we started looking for Buddy.

For a start, we had no idea what sort of price we might expect to pay, so wanted to sort out our finances. Having no-one else to ask at that point.

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I've no objection to being asked about prices as of course people need to know what to budget for but I just don't understand why it should ever be the only question asked. Perhaps the problem is that despite the information now available on the internet that people are only doing their homework after they buy a puppy not before?

Jane

[Jane S]

Can anyone just set themselves up as a 'breeder' ?  I only ask because in all the above costings, I don't see any licensing fee or anyone having any trouble registering as a breeder to begin with.  Do you need a license and if so, from whom, and how is it regulated ?

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You've asked this before Sue & the answer is the same - no licence is generally needed for breeders having less than 5 litters a year. This is laid down in the current law (The Breeding & Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999) & is unlikely to be changed in the near future. Those that have 5 or more litters a year are deemed to be commercial breeders & need licensing by their local authorities.

Jane

[Cob-Web]

I've no objection to being asked about prices as of course people need to know what to budget for but I just don't understand why it should ever be the only question asked. Perhaps the problem is that despite the information now available on the internet that people are only doing their homework after they buy a puppy not before?

Jane

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It may be because there is information on the internet that the number of questions have reduced?

There are loads of websites with lists of how to find a reputable breeder with the most prevalent advise  - Contact a Breed Club. It's easy to think that if breeders are recommended by a Breed Club Secretary the breeder must be "reputable" -  puppies must be from heath screened parents, selected for temperment, and well socialised - which may not always be the case