PRA/optigen tests and hip scoring?

[KellyS]

I've been having trouble with Antagene also - I want to send blood samples but they said they would prefer cheek swabs and sent me the cheek swabbing kits but as I'm going to be testing pups I would prefer to send blood because of the cross -contamination risks with puppies.

I have used the lady down in Southampton a couple of times for hip scoring and she is very good, you can stay with your dog throughout the whole process although you have to wear a very fetching tiger print  lead vest 

[workingcockers]

I'm glad someone brought this up as I am just sorting out taking my youngsters for hip scoring next week and so many people keep telling me 'we don't DO hip scoring in working cockers'.  This is something I had already suspected since when searching for mine I couldn't find any breeders that were hip scoring and most weren't eye testing either!  I was starting to wonder whether I was wasting my time and money getting them done!!

I do mine and Ive just had 3 done last week at a cost of £153 EACH. My vet used to be very reasonable but I was really taken aback. Add that to the Optigen DNAs that I had done 7 months or so back, it has been a very expensive year....but you are correct when you say there are hardly any done and there is still opposition to those that do.

[Luvly]

 

[workingcockers]

Why dont some working cocker breeders test ? isent there Hip D or Pra in working cockers ?

HD is a bit of a weird one for both types as there has only been just over 500 cockers ever tested since the scheme has been running (about 20 years in its current format, before that it was the GSD scheme??) and there is about 14000-15000 cockers reg every year so 500 cockers in say 14000 x 20yrs isnt really a good representation to base anything on. There has been quite a range of scores but nothing you can pin down and say yes or no for sure for BOTH types. However, I take the view that I personally want to know what I am breeding from so I do. Think with having had other breeds where hip scoring is a must, it feels 'wrong' for me not to do so. Where I will draw the line at an unacceptable score for me I dont know, as I dont want to throw the baby out with the bath water especially with a tight gene pool. Maybe this is why there is resistance to it as what you dont know you dont have to worry about...My experience in other breeds has been a good dog with a high hip scpre (in 50's) was a popular Show Champion stud dog in a numerically small breed prone to HD (WSS). He didnt pass this on though and the breed is now 4 gens down from thsi dog and the average score is still falling which is good. I find it interesting to watch other breeds and their trends.
PRA doesnt appear to be very prevalent, however it has been known (but not recently) , but until Optigen (as we all know), all cocker breeders of both types only had the pass or fail eye certificate to go on which doesnt throw up the carriers. There are certainly carriers. But, still so many breeders out there that dont know of this DNA test.
I see the lab people have managed to get the Optigen test under the KC umbrella. If the same happens with cockers, I think the KC, once it is part of their scheme, should maybe send out a one page leaflet with all those that reg pups with them, nothing too complicated, just drawing attention to the available tests. This way breeders without internet access cant say they didnt know about them and gives them the opportunity to decide if they want to make use of them, no one can force anyone unless the KC changes it reg policies. ok, maybe too late for the litter they have just reg, but it is a step in the right direction for the future.
Edited to add: just as an aside, I personally have never ever heard of FN in working cockers

[Caprilli]

Hi Kirsten,

there are quite a few statistics available regarding HD from the continental European countries where hip scoring is a must before breeding. It certainly runs in lines and is prooven to be hereditary but it is not a simple recessive or dominant gene. Often results can be masked for many Generations and then suddenly crop up again particularly if inexperienced breeders are unaware of those 4 - 5 Generations behind their dog and unknowingly double up on dogs that have had bad hips.

Greetings,
Stephanie

[sundune]

Just to throw something in there to support that it can be irelevant about some dogs parentage for hips, My Golden retriever has just had her hips done, the first and second generation behind her they are no higher than a combined score of 7 most are combined score of 3 or 4 but my girls hips have come back as 11 but i know 4 gens behind her there is one who has quite a high score.

[Tasha]

hips are a little difficult anyway because they are constantly changing and they aren't sure if its just genetics that cause the problem its also environmental, how much exercise they have had as pups, food type, etc its wear and tear and the tests are only done once so there is no guarantee that you are getting a definite no to HD.  You can even get some dogs with a high score that have had a green break.  Its a snap shot view.

The europeans have the right idea though they hip score all the dogs in the breeding program and you have to adher to an A or B score to be able to breed although I have from some countries seen dogs bred that have a C or a D score.  Being able to see all the dogs history though through its whole family is a very useful piece of information.

[workingcockers]

quite agree - I know its a bit of hereditary and envir and there is no black and white , but there are no great stats for cockers in this country of scored v KC reg if you know what I mean, 500 is a drop in the ocean to the amount of reg cockers in the time span of 20 years...

I threw the comment in about the Welshie just as an interesting thing (I wasnt expressing a personal view on whether it was right or wrong to use this dog, my personal thoughts on this have changed over the years and are irrelevant anyway) , esp as some in the ring are 4 gens away from him  and there is a more complete picture in that breed as there is in other breeds like GSD, labs and esp clumbers. Will be v interesting in another 10 years to see what happens.

Think you have to take a v rounded view of things, I know in labs there is the concern that there was so much focus on hips, that temperament was affected. While I would love to see more cockers hip scored, I would hate that (and eye status) to be the only deciding factor in breeding.

[Tasha]

me too... I think you have to start off with the basics, ie is it healthy??  Will it pass anything on to its offspring or other future generations and then go for the temperment, conformation, working ability etc and if all that comes up trumps then breed.

If more people did we'd have less bred each year and fewer dogs in rescue as a result of over breeding, we'd also have healthier stock.

I know in some breeds in some countries they have to adher to very strict rules before joining the breed program, weimaraners in germany for an example have to have a full set of teeth  in this country no one would bother counting them up they just check to see that they are clean and healthy looking.  The breed program is strict you have to do conformation and hunting tests as well as health tests and if anything is wrong its a no no to being in the breed program.

[Caprilli]

Hi Tasha,

it is not just Weimaraners but almost all dog breeds in Germany that have to pass those stringent tests. If it is not a working breed then they have to pass a temperament test instead of the working exam. It is not a fool proof system but it certainly stops puppy farmers from even trying to KC register their stock, making it easy for potential owners to spot the difference.
I still maintain my view that HD is strongly hereditary, certainly can be influenced by the environment but is more prominent in some breeds than in others.
In a post above somebody mentioned on higher hip scored dog on the pedigree - this is enough as HD can "jump" many Generations and most hereditary patterns (good or bad) take seven Generations to establish, one or two just will not do.

Having said all that - we do breed dogs and not hips only so I totally understand where you are coming from but still wish that some would be more selective in their breeding programs.

Greetings,
Stephanie
Greetings,
Stephanie

[Tasha]

If anyone is interested in the Optigen testing there is a 20/20 clinic being held in September in Surrey.  As its a clinic and the tests are being done in a bulk lot there is a discount available of 20% with an added 5% for making the payment online.  I'm participating in this rather than going through the french company which to be honest I have found a little too difficult to book on their site.

The details are:

September 11, 2007 - Southern Border Collie Club (UK) Clinic
Blood draw for OptiGen tests and microchipping commencing at 1:45 pm. The clinic will be run by Val Tiller in association with Southern Border Collie Club and the vet attending is Michael Lomax, M.R.C.V.S. For full details and to book places for your dogs, please contact Val Tiller
Breed: All Breeds
Location: "Foxbarton", 15 Beaconsfield Road, Langley Vale, Epsom, Surrey, England  KT18 6HA
Contact: Val Tiller
Email: val.tiller@talk21.com
Phone: (01372) 273597

[Caprilli]

The Europeans have the right idea though they hip score all the dogs in the breeding program and you have to adher to an A or B score to be able to breed although I have from some countries seen dogs bred that have a C or a D score.  Being able to see all the dogs history though through its whole family is a very useful piece of information.

Tasha, the rules vary in different European countries. In some Scandinavian countries the only rule is that the dog must be hip scored, no matter what the outcome of the test is in Germany you are allowed to breed from A and B hips but you will also get permission to breed from C scored dogs IF you are breeding the C scored hip to an A scored hip. Rules can vary which is confusing but the most confusing fact is that many of the continental countries have got different hip scoring systems so an A is not always an A. To add to the confusion - The UK has one of the toughest hip scoring systems in the world, I believe only shared with Australia.

Greetings,
Stephanie

[wales07]

Hi all,ive found this thread very interesting.Does any one know the total number for the hip score that is deemed acceptable?

[Jane S]

According to the BVA, the mean score for Cockers is 14 but that's based on data from January 06 so is not exactly up to date.

[Tasha]

do you mean the average score for the breed or a good score??? I'd want a dog to have the international A' grade if possible Bonnie's hips are UK 4:4 which is good for her breed as a weimaraner that has a score of 13 but I haven't looked into the cockers I suppose because of the two variations it would be interesting to have a score for both the working and show type but unlikely unless you did your own stuff and could see what was what - having said that all the data is available so it could be done.

I just had some great news back from Optigen with regard to Ayla's eye test for PRA - she's CLEAR!!!!  Yippee  She had a very dodgy eyesight test last year and I was terribly worried but it seems that despite having a bit of rubbish floating around she's got good eyes   I'm going to let her breeders know as both have good working lines.

They are doing an Optigen 20/20 clinic again soon so keep an eye out on their website for details, they don't do the FN test you do have to go to Antegene for that and to be honest I am having it done but am not happy that we don't benefit from the discounts the 20/20 clinics offer or from only having one test session done, is very traumatic for the dogs so less fuss the better as far as I am concerned.