Under shot jaw preclude breeding?

[spanielcrazy]

I wanted to know if it was a 'never ever' situation.

To be very honest it's a grey area, particularly in regards to working dogs. What I would do is query the very top gundog people you can find to see what their views on it are. While it's a "never ever" situation among reputable show breeders, I don't know what the working/trialling people think about it, and now would be very curious to know!

You might want to do some research about breeding in general, it's not without it's risks to both the bitch and the pups 

[Coco]

[/quote]
You might want to do some research about breeding in general, it's not without it's risks to both the bitch and the pups 
[/quote]

Oh good God, from the small amount I have read my stomach churns with fear and anxiety for them. 

That's also interesting regarding the difference between working and show. I think we are best keeping Wherry baby free but I hope that is why our breeder bred from his bitch, unless it wasn't evident in her. He didn't seem unscrupulous nor ignorant at all.

[spanielcrazy]

but I hope that is why our breeder bred from his bitch, unless it wasn't evident in her. He didn't seem unscrupulous nor ignorant at all.

It can skip generations and not necessarily be evident to even the most scrupulous breeder. That's why it's such a stinker to get rid of 

[Nicola]

You might want to do some research about breeding in general, it's not without it's risks to both the bitch and the pups 

Too right, Cazzie and I have spent a good part of today mixing up lactol  and feeding and cleaning up some 2 day old puppies whose Mum is very ill    Thankfully she should be ok but it doesn't look like she has enough milk for the pups. Having seen her so sick today and the task of handfeeding 5 puppies every 2 hours I just couldn't do it, either to one of my dogs or to myself. It's just so risky and this dog belongs to a very experienced breeder as well.  

[Jane S]

It can skip generations and not necessarily be evident to even the most scrupulous breeder. That's why it's such a stinker to get rid of 

This is so true. I don't imagine there are too many breeders who have been breeding for any length of time who have not come across some bad mouths in their puppies even where the parents have totally correct mouths. Years ago we bred a litter from a bitch with a totally correct bite who produced several bad mouths in the same litter - we never bred from her again and had her spayed.

[Coco]

Nichola, sorry to hear that, I do hope mum recovers soon.

Jane, Spaniel crazy - That's very interesting, i'm curious about it now and i'm thankfull that hopefully then our breeder wasn't being bad. So, if say it were 'dormant' in his breeding bitch it may be passed to one of her pups and be dormant there too? Therefore, Wherry's brothers and sisters who have fine bites could still throw a pup with the same problem? Also, therefore, untill one day it is perhaps bred out of the breed then there is always a posibility that a seemingly healthy bitch may produce this problem?

[spanielcrazy]

Jane, Spaniel crazy - That's very interesting, i'm curious about it now and i'm thankfull that hopefully then our breeder wasn't being bad. So, if say it were 'dormant' in his breeding bitch it may be passed to one of her pups and be dormant there too? Therefore, Wherry's brothers and sisters who have fine bites could still throw a pup with the same problem? Also, therefore, untill one day it is perhaps bred out of the breed then there is always a posibility that a seemingly healthy bitch may produce this problem?

Yes, exactly 

[Cazzie]

IMO, your dog should not be bred from with the jaw she has, I did consider breeding my JRT but even after her jaw grew to be ok it was enough to stop me.

IMO if your dog is a good dog, ie of working ability and nature, then I would cherish that and not put her at risk of any sort by taking pups off her. I know it can be a small risk, but it happens to some out there and my dogs mean far more than any of their pups would.

I also do not see the point in breeding dogs unless they are going to highly experienced homes of people you know and I certainly would not be selling any of my working dogs to a Gamekeeper. I could not live with myself knowing there could be a potential risk that someone may not care for that dog in the way I would or worse case end up in a rehoming centre.

I am too chicken hearted to breed as I think you have to be a bit hard when it comes to breeding dogs.

I would suggest that if you are wanting another dog, I would do your research and contact a successful Pro Gun dog breeder and buy another pup as there is no guarantee that any pup you breed will turn out like their mother 

[*Adele*]

I just wanted to say that I feel for you with your OH and potentially breeding from her! My OH isn't against having another cocker if we can get one just like Chloe and I know that if she was to be successful in the show ring then I know whom the dad to her puppies would be!  So does OH and he's said more than once "it would be nice to have one of her puppies!" but I'm not planning to breed from her all the same. It's a terrible shame as her temperament is superb and she would do well in the show ring, so I've been told, and I would love another cocker but still, no need to breed from her when I know many good breeders who I would trust to buy a cocker from.

[lyn]

ok i will run for cover after posting this but, if i could guarantee ellie would have only one puppy. i would let her have one. just for me to keep but i know that wouldn't happen so she won't be a mum ever.
cazzie, i am very curious about the coment you made regarding never selling a puppy to a gamekeeper why not???

[Coco]

Exactly what I was going to say - why not a game keeper? It would spend all its time running around fields and curled up by the fire at night!

[lyn]

in my search for our new puppy i am specifically looking at gamekeepers rather than anyone else

[Nicola]

cazzie, i am very curious about the coment you made regarding never selling a puppy to a gamekeeper why not???

To the majority of gamekeepers a dog is a tool, not a pet. They tend to be pretty unsentimental, bitches are almost always bred from and their dogs are generally pts when they have reached the end of their useful working life or if they receive a bad injury - these dogs have to work to earn their keep. If I bred pups I would probably not home to a gamekeeper either, or I'd vet them very carefully beforehand to find the exception rather than the rule. Training methods may also be fairly 'old fashioned'.

Coco - none of the gamekeeper's dogs I know spend nights curled up by the fire - most of them have never been in a house in their lives. Working dogs like this live outside.

[lyn]

ellie is from a gamekeeper and he loves his dogs. pups were not in a kennel they were reared in the house with the family. there are a lot of pet homes out there that would have an injured dog pts rather than fork out the money to heal it. there are also a lot of people now who use outdated training methods.
in fact i am now thinking of contacting ellies breeder to see if they plan a litter next year. i honestly couldn't think of anyone i would rather have a working cocker off, except maybe for kirsten(i love her dogs).ellies breeder is very very proud of his dogs. ask helen she knows them well.

[Coco]

Coco - none of the gamekeeper's dogs I know spend nights curled up by the fire - most of them have never been in a house in their lives. Working dogs like this live outside.
[/quote]

Yes sorry, you are probably right in that respect, alot of keepers kennel theirdogs, but as do alot of general dog owners. The game keeper i'm refering to, his dogs are not true keepers dogs, they live on the sofa. The bit about fields is universal but I do follow your point about being for a purpose. Again this keeper is of the farm shoot, not his full time profession. Point understood.