Work/Show

[Wendi]

Hi I asked for some advice regarding puppies.  I have now seen both parents KC papers.  Dad is a show cocker, orange roan, Mum is a working cocker, Chocolate.  Where do you all stand on this?  Kennel Club told me that they are happy for the two to mix and the puppies will be KC Registered.

[Annette]

The two varieties are still within the one breed so technically it is fine to mix them.

However, although it is sometimes done by an experienced breeder in order to improve a line, it does need to be done with caution. More often than not I think it is something which is done either in ignorance by inexperienced breeders, or for a quick profit by a back yard breeder.

I would also be wary of a breeder who wants to mix a solid with a particolour.

I am sure this will be added to by some of the more experienced members. I am no expert by any means. All my knowledge has been gleaned from COL.

[Helen]

why are they breeding show with working? How are they 'marketing' their puppies?  Are they selling them as Show/Worker crosses?

If I'm perfectly honest I would doubt the motives of this breeder as in my heart I would think they were only breeding like this to produce sought after 'colours'

[Wendi]

I had a long chat with the breeder.  They are home breeders and the dogs live on their farm with them as pets.  They explained that both dogs had excellent tempraments and they felt sure that they were a good mix to produce a family pet.  They are being sold as cocker spaniels but it was explained to me that one was a show line and one was a cocker and they showed me the KC papers and advised me to phone the Kennel Club.  I was just curious as I had never really heard of working v show before.  I am fairly new to the world of cockers.  All the puppies were in the house with the mum and dad, who looked well loved and healthy.

[emilyjw]

Have you had a cocker before? I think when I was looking an one of your other posts you mentioned you had a 10 month old working girl, was that right or am I mixing people up 

[Wendi]

Yes I adopted a cocker  from a rescue centre but I have never been down the road of choosing one from a breeder.  I am a dog lover, but am unsure of pedigree's etc as all my dogs have tended to be rescue pups until now.  My baby is nearly 2 now and is a star!  I am looking for a companion.

[emilyjw]

It's a mindfield indeed, we got Bracken before we found COL and now realise her breeder was a rather commercial venture. We didn't know much when we were looking and didn't really know about working cockers. It was only when we got Bracken's pedigree and we noticed FTCH in her pedigree (and found out what that stood for..) that she had any working cocker in her.

It doesn't sound like there was a good 'breed' reason for the owners to mate their two dogs together, but to me temprement is as important as breeding. Like I said somewhere, you can't be sure what the dog would resemble in terms of coat/ looks - could look worker, could look show, could be somewhere in between. the most important thing.

Have the dogs had any health tests done? I really wished I had known about Optigen testing when we got Bracken as there is always the risk of her having these hereditary conditions, which better breeders would have tested her the parents for.

[Wendi]

I havent asked about health tests.  I know they were seen by the vet but nothing specific was mentioned.  I will find out.  Which tests in particular are important?

[emilyjw]

This covers the health things - http://www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/health.htm

It's really worth reading this - http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=2019.0

As a minimum the dogs should have a yearly eye check and be tested for Glaucoma.

[Cayley]

This type of cross should only be done in certain circumstances by breeders who have extensive knowledge.

The following things would put me off this breeder.

- Advertising working crosses as being good family pets, they can be but that shouldn't there selling point and the breeder should be questioning you about your suitability for such a dog.

- No apparent health testing, I personally would expect at least one parent to be Optigen PRA and FN tested clear, these are DNA tests and you should ask to see the certificates for the parent/s that have been tested.

- Solid to parti mating, this shouldn't be done in show types as it increases the chance of getting pups that are mismarked.

- Uncommon colours, livers are bred for the novelty factor mostly.

- They own both the sire and dam, it's unlikely that the breeder owns the most suitable dog for the bitch.

[Cob-Web]

I had a long chat with the breeder.  They are home breeders and the dogs live on their farm with them as pets.  They explained that both dogs had excellent tempraments and they felt sure that they were a good mix to produce a family pet. 

My opinion is that there really is no need to deliberately breed dogs in order to produce a family pet - the litters responsibly bred from exceptional examples of the breed for show or working are sufficient to meet the demand of the pet market. Having a good temperament is not, on its own, a good enough reason to breed - matching genetically compatible bitches and dogs is a complex process which requires and understanding and knowledge of pedigrees as well as inheritance in order to avoid deviation from the breed standard.   Deliberately producing show/working strain crosses effectively reverses the years of work put in by dedicated breeders in order to produce the lines of dogs that closely meet the breed standard in the UK.

My opinion is not motivated by breed snobbery but a belief that the only legitimate reason to breed dogs at present is in order to prevent losing the wide range of breeds we currently enjoy, and the only way to achieve this is to limit breeding to the most exceptional examples of the breed (while maintaining genetic diversity, of course  ). There are literally thousands of dogs put to sleep every year because they don't have homes, and deliberately breeding more litters which do not represent good examples of the breed, and may be perpetuating hidden genetic fault in their lines, is unnecessary and irresponsible imo.



Edited to correct appalling spelling - without a spell check I am useless 

[Nicola]

My opinion is that there really is no need to deliberately breed dogs in order to produce a family pet - the responsibly litters bred from exceptional examples of the breed for show or working are sufficient to meet the demand of the pet market. Having a good temerament is not, on its own, a good enough reson to breed - matching gentically compatible bitches and dogs is a complex process which requires and understanding and knowledge of pedigrees as well as inheritance in order to avoid deviation from the breed standard.   Deliberately producing show/working strain crosses effectively reverses the years of work put in by dedicated breeders in order to produce the lines of dogs that closely meet the breed standard in the UK.

My opinion is not motivated by breed snobbery but a belief that the only legitimate reason to breed dogs at present is in order to prevent losing the wide range of breeds we currently enjoy, and the only way to acheive this is to limit breeding to the most exceptional examples of the breed (while maintaining genetic diversity, of course  ). There are literally thousands of dogs put to sleep every year because they don't have homes, and deliberately breeding more litters which do not represent good examples of the breed, and may be prepetuating hidden gentic fault in their lines, is unecesary and irrepsonsible imo.

I couldn't agree more. I'm sure the majority of people here on COL would say that their own dogs have superb temperaments and make fantastic pets but that doesn't mean they should all be bred from, and certainly not with a dog which just happens to be the closest, handiest option and isn't even the same type of cocker. To me these people are extremely irresponsible.

[joanne_v]

I agree with the above. These people do sound like they care and sound better than some breeders out there but it also sounds like they just dont know better in which case they should definitely not be breeding dogs. I dont think any responsible breeder would cross the two types.