Optigen tested parents - what does it mean to offspring?

[badgeralbert]

This has nothing to do with your thread, sorry to butt in again but ....

On looking at Badgers pedigree the other day his Dam seems to be the same as his Sire's Sire's Dam - does that make sense?

Would this be the "popular syndrome" thing or have I got totally the wrong end of the stick here.

[KellyS]

That sounds more like line breeding. Breeders line breed to concentrate the blood or positive genes, it's not unusual and can prove very sucessful but at the same time there is the risk of concentrating any negative genes...

The 'Popular Sydrome' is where a popular dog is used by lots of people and sooner or later you won't be able to find a dog in the country that doesn't have this dog in it's pedigree hence compounding the lines...

[Coco]

If you look at some of the working cocker pedigrees' on the pedigree board you'll see that a dog called Dandrew Druid comes up in a lot of dog's pedigrees as does Jade of Livermere. They were so popular IMO pups without either in their pedigree are few and far between.  The issue is that now the working cockers that have these guys in will be from the same gene pool. If one or the other of them had a health issues that didn't show until late it'd be too late for all the off spring. Some FTCH studs sire maybe 20 litters in a year. If their offspring go on to be the FTCH's of the future as theoretically should go they would then become the popular studs say sireing say another 20 litters in a year. So if the original dog had a health issue which passed to say 60 of their offspring which were then bread from you can see how quickly the problem could spread.

That's not the whole of the issue, a very basic bit of it, but it sort of gives an idea of why it isn't great.

ETA : Typed at same time as Kelly  Also, i'm not suggesting either of those dogs has issues, just using them as an example 

[badgeralbert]

I see, I see (sorry to be a pain) 

Line breeding in Badger's case was a positive one then, cos he has been  all his happy years.  I have never noticed it until Saturday when I got his pedigree out to take with me to get the pup on Thursday and I must say it did alarm me, good job he's all growed up etc, even though he's an oldie  .  I want to show it to the breeder because I think she knows his breeders, although it was years ago!

This is soooo complicated, but interesting too - off to find the working cockers pedigree board now 

Thanks for the explanation and patience 

And Good Luck in finding the right pup 

[fenn2006]

So which litter are you going for? I agree with Livercake, go with your gut instict

[Coco]

So which litter are you going for? I agree with Livercake, go with your gut instict

Well, I thinki've waited this long...
Basically, the two Golden/reds and now one. They are 4 hours away and my car is dying so on a totally rubbish level i've discounted them now. Driving up to see just one pup right now isn't really do-able. Plus they are only young and I find it so hard to choose before the are 5-6 weeks. There seem to be a lot of litters coming up and although I loved their breeder it's just not practical and i'm a big believer in fate.

The tested litter I will get to see at 6-7 weeks I think it is and there are 4 to choose from. I may walk away if they are not right but for now they are my best bet. As I said i've waited this long and i've walked away from other litter so i'm confident I won't be swayed.

I'd be seeing this litter if they weren't tested, and the ultimate decision won't be based on that. I shant pick one of this litter because it's of the tested stud if it's not right and i'll approach it just as I would any other.

[Eceni]

At least people are questioning the wisdom of using 'popular sires' and reducing genetic diversity. I'm a vet (well, I used to be) and looking ahead to a new dog after my lurcher - have looked at a couple of supposedly healthy breeds only to find that the 'inbreeding coefficients' - that's an index of the level of inbreeding - were horrendously high.  The problems we see on the outside are the tip of a genetic iceberg and  - if we stretch the analogy rather far - you want your iceberg to have the widest possible base or it'll sink.  Close 'line-breeding' is a genetic timebomb waiting to go off.

so, to answer the OP, Optigen testing is A Good Thing and necessary if you don't want blind dogs, but if you want *healthy* un-blind dogs, you need to find people who are breeding for good genetic diversity.  Ideally, no repeats in the first 5 generations of the pedigree, and not too many after that (no point if what you have in level 6 is a series of brother/sister matings - that blows it all out of the water)

I do so hope enough people keep sanely breeding out...

e

[fenn2006]

So which litter are you going for? I agree with Livercake, go with your gut instict

Well, I thinki've waited this long...
Basically, the two Golden/reds and now one. They are 4 hours away and my car is dying so on a totally rubbish level i've discounted them now. Driving up to see just one pup right now isn't really do-able. Plus they are only young and I find it so hard to choose before the are 5-6 weeks. There seem to be a lot of litters coming up and although I loved their breeder it's just not practical and i'm a big believer in fate.

The tested litter I will get to see at 6-7 weeks I think it is and there are 4 to choose from. I may walk away if they are not right but for now they are my best bet. As I said i've waited this long and i've walked away from other litter so i'm confident I won't be swayed.

I'd be seeing this litter if they weren't tested, and the ultimate decision won't be based on that. I shant pick one of this litter because it's of the tested stud if it's not right and i'll approach it just as I would any other.

Like you say you have waited this long and I am a strong believer in fate too ....

[Cob-Web]

Ideally, no repeats in the first 5 generations of the pedigree, and not too many after that (no point if what you have in level 6 is a series of brother/sister matings - that blows it all out of the water)

In my experience, it would be very difficult to find reputably bred show cockers with no repeats in preceding 5 generations (don't know if it the same with working cockers) - of course, backyard and commercially bred litters will be more likely to have a random genetic ancestry 

A high co-efficient of inbreeding cannot be considered an indicator of health risk on it's own - a reputable breeder will have researched the direct and indirect ancestry of the sire and dame involved.... 

[Eceni]

A high co-efficient of inbreeding cannot be considered an indicator of health risk on it's own - a reputable breeder will have researched the direct and indirect ancestry of the sire and dame involved.... 

Well yes, but reducing genetic diversity in its own right leads to health issues... see http://www.canine-genetics.com/ for a more detailed explanation than I can ever give - the page on 'the Poodle and the chocolate cake' is well worth a read.  This is where we are beginning to see problems, tho' - you can get away with looking at the physical effects only for a while, but sooner or later, the deeper implications of increased CoI come up to bite.... For me, (I used to be a vet - not any more, but still interested in genetics and populations dynamics, if only for the purely selfish reason that I'll be looking for a new dog soon and want it to be healthy) CoI is actually a very good indicator of possible inherited defects - the question is only when/whether they'll express, not whether they're there or not.

e

[Helen]

A high co-efficient of inbreeding cannot be considered an indicator of health risk on it's own - a reputable breeder will have researched the direct and indirect ancestry of the sire and dame involved.... 

Well yes, but reducing genetic diversity in its own right leads to health issues... see http://www.canine-genetics.com/ for a more detailed explanation than I can ever give - the page on 'the Poodle and the chocolate cake' is well worth a read.  This is where we are beginning to see problems, tho' - you can get away with looking at the physical effects only for a while, but sooner or later, the deeper implications of increased CoI come up to bite.... For me, (I used to be a vet - not any more, but still interested in genetics and populations dynamics, if only for the purely selfish reason that I'll be looking for a new dog soon and want it to be healthy) CoI is actually a very good indicator of possible inherited defects - the question is only when/whether they'll express, not whether they're there or not.

e

I agree with Eceni (and welcome by the way!).  Testing for 2 or 3 inherited conditions cannot possibly in my mind be the be all and end all for breeding.  Although tested dogs 'tick the box' line breeding & reducing the genetic diversity must have an effect 

A large proportion of the pedigrees on the working cocker board contain an element of line breeding - it was one of the things I did look at when I got my dog, and happily sacrificed less red (FT CH) on his pedigree for as diverse a pedigree as possible.  He has repetition in his 5th generation - once on dams side, once on sires, which is difficult to avoid...and his first appearance of a FT CH is in the 3rd generation. 

I'm happy with his diverse gene pool, and lack of famous immediate relations 

Eceni, what type of dog are you looking for?

[Coco]

Can I ask, did my post get deleted? I don't mind if it did, I understand, just so as I don't type it again. Ta

[Eceni]

I'm not sure what kind of dog I'm looking for - which is why the search is starting early so that when Inca finally departs (which is immensely hard to imagine), I'll be up to speed on what's changed in the last 15 years or so...

I work from home, have plenty of spare time, live in the middle of nowhere (almost, at least, down a no through road with very limited traffic and lots of land around - Inca's not had her collar on since we got here 2 years ago). I used to do agility in our joint youths and would like to go back to that - am a lot less inclined to kill things than I was so less interested in a hunting dog - but want something trainable, intelligent, fun, biddable, high energy  -and above all, healthy

so unless I crack and go for another lurcher (and it's very, very hard to find a sanely bred one now - lots of bull terrier blood in there, or collies inbred to the point of insanity), then I've narrowed down to a working cocker - got a friend who breeds - and doesn't line breed  - or a whippet.

open to all and any suggestions, though.   I do love red working cockers - would be very happy with a little red bitch tho' like you, would be looking for maximal genetic diversity.

it's a minefield out there... 

e

[Colin]

Can I ask, did my post get deleted? I don't mind if it did, I understand, just so as I don't type it again. Ta

I've not deleted any posts. Usually the person would be contacted to explain why a post was deleted, so I'm guessing there's been a glitch in the system somewhere.

[Coco]

Can I ask, did my post get deleted? I don't mind if it did, I understand, just so as I don't type it again. Ta

I've not deleted any posts. Usually the person would be contacted to explain why a post was deleted, so I'm guessing there's been a glitch in the system somewhere.

Thanks 

What I said was; to Eceni - Would you prefer an untested dog from a diverse gene pool or a more closely bread dog that had all the relevant testing.

And a red working bitch - Me too!!!! In over 6 monts of looking i've found one!!