Optigen tested parents - what does it mean to offspring?

[djangonut]

Cobweb wrote:

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In my experience, it would be very difficult to find reputably bred show cockers with no repeats in preceding 5 generations (don't know if it the same with working cockers) - of course, backyard and commercially bred litters will be more likely to have a random genetic ancestry 

A high co-efficient of inbreeding cannot be considered an indicator of health risk on it's own - a reputable breeder will have researched the direct and indirect ancestry of the sire and dame involved.... 
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What does "reputably" and "reputable" mean in this context?  With our present knowledge of the effects of close breeding on fertility,  temperament,  and the increased possibility of the occurrence of lethal mutations,  it is more "reputable" in my opinion, to be looking to outcross away from repeats in the first five generations.  A high co-efficient of inbreeding  can indeed "be an indicator of health risk on it's (sic) own."  And by continuing down the path of genetic "purity" - solid to solid,  parti to parti,  worker to worker - we lose more and more genetic material,   ultimately to the disadvantage of cockers. 

My experience shows that close breeding can bring a successful quick fix,  but may then hit a brick wall. The big show kennels have realised this in the past.  Both the Lochranza and Broomleaf kennels for example, crossed solid and parti lines on occasion to great effect.  Sh. Ch. Broomleaf Black and Tan and Sh. Ch. Lochranza Man of Fashion spring to mind. The only dog to win the Cocker Championship three times,  F.T.Ch. Speckle of Ardoon, was out of an Elan (working bred) bitch,  by a Sixshot (show) dog.
 
Most cocker puppies are not shown or worked but are much loved and loving family pets.  As such, health and longevity have got to be the paramount considerations in cocker breeding,  even if this in the short term means a loss of show "quality" to the breeder/exhibitor or work "quality" to the breeder/field-trialler.  "Quality" means nothing if a dog is dead or seriously ill by middle age.

If I were to begin breeding cockers again,  I hope that I would be a "reputable" breeder.  Yet I would not breed "on paper" again,  but would choose breeding stock, yes, based on "my" type,  that looked like the cockers I am used to,  and that had working ability. But more importantly they would be chosen for their characters and vitality,  rather than their pedigrees. 

(Pedigrees can be falsified anyway.  I have read recently that the French Kennel Club checked some pedigrees against DNA and found 20% that did not match!  I have seen obviously fake pedigrees - a sire down as Lucklena Lochranza for example.  Lucklena and Lochranza were two of the greatest ever cocker kennel affixes!)

John

[Eceni]

What I said was; to Eceni - Would you prefer an untested dog from a diverse gene pool or a more closely bread dog that had all the relevant testing.

And a red working bitch - Me too!!!! In over 6 monts of looking i've found one!!

Um.... I'd wait until I could tick both boxes - a tested bitch (or at least, one from tested parents) with a diverse gene pool. If I absolutely had to choose, I'd go on bended knee to a friend of mine who's in her late 70s and has given up breeding. She didn't test, but I've known her dogs for 4 generations and they're cracking - so I'd have an untested one from her if I could persuade her to breed again...


and

just read the post above from John and would agree with all of it - had no idea that a showxworker could work, but rather glad that it can

thank you all for making this a safe place to explore contentious ideas

e

[Helen]

John, I hope you don't think I'm being facetious, but for once I agree with you wholeheartedly 

Coco - I thought only the sire was health tested or have I missed another litter?

Eceni, I think you would love a working cocker (and although I have a brown one not a red one..(yet!), I think he's pretty extraordinary anyway  )

[Coco]

Coco - I thought only the sire was health tested or have I missed another litter?

Yes you're right I shoudln't have used the term 'tested litter' I mean the litter from the tested Sire

[spanielcrazy]

If I were to begin breeding cockers again,  I hope that I would be a "reputable" breeder.  Yet I would not breed "on paper" again,  but would choose breeding stock, yes, based on "my" type,  that looked like the cockers I am used to,  and that had working ability. But more importantly they would be chosen for their characters and vitality,  rather than their pedigrees. 

Not disagreeing with you at all but:

Pedigree cannot be completely disregarded in a sound breeding programme. For example, there are some pedigrees that just make my hair stand on end and I don't know that I could get past that despite any health checks.  

If you are breeding type to type, crossing solids and partis, or working and show, and have long range goals for your breeding programme, eventually you are going to have to do some tight linebreeding to "lock in" your type or working characteristics. So there again you have to watch your pedigrees.

Linebreeding, outcrossing and inbreeding all have their place in a knowledgable breeding programme. I do not consider willy-nilly outcrossing an indication of general health and soundness or working ability, nor do I consider a tight pedigree as necessarily a portent of disaster. It all just depends on who is behind the pedigree  

[joanne_v]

Eceni we need to see lurcher pics  And do a post on the intro board too! Your comments are great and very interesting 

[Eceni]

lurchers are in the thumbnail - but I'll try to put them somewhere else

and will post an intro after dinner

I do think that raising the CoI for any length of time will inherently reduce genetic diversity which is guaranteed to reduce viability (see various papers on Major Histocompatibility Complexes and their reliance on genetic diversity - also the links between reduced genetic diversity and auto-immune disease) but definitely, if there were no line breeding, all dogs would look like the kind of prick-eared, sandy-coloured, curl-tailed feral dog that roams the streets of most cities in the developing world - so it's all a question of degree. 

in an idea world, I'd like dogs with the least possible while still having a vague idea of what I'm going to get when my squirmy 8 week old pup stops looking like every other pup in creation.... but not a lot more

thanks, all

[Cob-Web]

Linebreeding, outcrossing and inbreeding all have their place in a knowledgable breeding programme. I do not consider willy-nilly outcrossing an indication of general health and soundness or working ability, nor do I consider a tight pedigree as necessarily a portent of disaster. It all just depends on who is behind the pedigree 

 

Brilliantly worded, and far better than I could; I think I used the word reputable to mean knowledgeable, and I agree with you entirely 

[KellyS]

Very interesting thread, definately food for thought....fortunately in our breed there is a fairly wide genetic gene pool if required, compared to some breeds especially some of the rare vunerable breeds.

[Eceni]

I think this is one of these verbs of variable expression: 

He in-breeds to popular sires and will destroy the breed, you line-breed without due thought, I am an experienced breeder conducting judicious matings to selected and proven dogs.... 

(note, this is a verb declention, I *don't* breed and don't plan to, unless I have a brainstorm and create a Tudor Hound which is - or could be - a working whippet x working cocker... I've seen one and it was gorgeous, tho' a Springer cross - but realise this is probably heresy )


m

[djangonut]

Spanielcrazy wrote:

"Linebreeding, outcrossing,  and inbreeding all have their place in a knowledgable breeding programme."

I would change the emphasis of the above sentence to:

"A breeding programme should have knowledge of the effects of linebreeding, outcrossing, and inbreeding."

Inbreeding and linebreeding are indeed tools in the armory of dog breeders,  but not necessarily essential tools.  Perhaps these tools were necessary at the foundation of the breed to fix characteristics and to make cockers look and behave like cockers. Unfortunately it is inbreeding which probably is responsible for the mutations which cause genetic disease, and then linebreeding distributes this genetic disease throughout a breed.

With four decades of knowledge, and having bred a champion cocker and cocker CC winners based on a solid/parti cross,  and having been involved in breeding in another spaniel breed with health problems, that needed a total outcross from a separate breed that after only three generations from the cross,  produced winners on the show bench as well as field trial winners,  I feel that I have the experience to choose not to use the linebreeding or inbreeding tools.

Instead of selecting on pedigree,  I would select dogs for my breeding programme that I liked,  that were healthy,  and had good temperaments.  Most breeders do that anyway. Selection is the key.  I started with stock almost identically bred to another champ show judge.  She selected for red and pretty,  and I selected for black and butch. We ended up with totally different, but acceptably good lines of show winning cockers.

You pays your money .....

John

[JaspersMum]

Two probably stupid questions that I have pondered

1. If the parents are both clear, then I believe that the offspring will be clear    , therefore does a breeder have to worry about testing the offspring - will the clear perpetuate through future litters and can it still miss a generation?

2. Other than the possibility of a mis-marked puppy, why is parti - solid mating so frowned upon? If the parents are tested and temperaments etc good, is it really so terrible?

[KellyS]

Clear x Clear can only ever produce clear in respect of the Optigen DNA test. In respect of the KC/BVA eye tests -  clear x clear -there is a risk of carrier or affected pups as the certificate only assures there physical status at that point and not what genes they carry, often dogs affected with PRA don't show symptoms of the disease until later in life...

Apart from mis-marking no I don't think there are any other reasons for not crossing partis & solids

Hope that helps

[Eceni]

Spanielcrazy wrote:

"Linebreeding, outcrossing,  and inbreeding all have their place in a knowledgable breeding programme."

I would change the emphasis of the above sentence to:

"A breeding programme should have knowledge of the effects of linebreeding, outcrossing, and inbreeding."

You pays your money .....

John

Brilliant, and perfect and I'd support this wholeheartedly - and wish that all breeders understood.

for my interest, because I know nothing about KC breeding, how were you able to cross in another breed and three generations have the progeny accepted as being of the first breed?  Is this possible across the board, or were the hierarchy of this particular breed relaxed in their accepting of bloodlines (thinking of Plummer Terriers where one group sacked Brian Plummer - who had founded the breed - for the heresy of suggesting that this limited gene pool needed to be expanded and thus brought in new blood from a different breed.  There are, as a result, now two sets of Plummer Terrier breeders, the 'pure' and the 'new'  -and it's a tiny, tiny breed comparatively speaking)

many thanks

e

[djangonut]

Eceni asked how it was possible to outcross to another breed and get the progeny recognised by a Kennel Club.

The outcross happened in France between a barbet and an Irish Water Spaniel,  both large water dogs, because a French breeder was concerned at the incidence of cancer and epilepsy in her IWS.  (The barbet is a taproot breed which is possibly at the base of most water dogs,  poodles,  Briard,  bichon etc.) A cross bred puppy was mated back to a pure bred water spaniel and there were three puppies.  French and Dutch Kennel Club judges recognised these puppies as Irish Water Spaniels on how they looked, (phenotype), and they were given registration papers.   One of these puppies was brought to be mated to my stud dog here in England.  Eleven puppies resulted.
 
This litter produced French,  Dutch, and German show champions.  Competing against English Springer Spaniels another has a French Field Trial Champion title - as well as a show title.  (She was handled to her field wins by France's top trial handler of springers and cockers, Patrice Raquin.)  Others of the eleven have won field trials in France and Belgium,  and one is the best ever Dutch IWS agility dog.  (There is a video of it working at www.greensocks.nl).

I used the pet passport scheme to import one of the eleven.  I wondered if there would be a problem with English Kennel Club registration,  and spoke to Jeff Sampson,  the KC geneticist, who said that he would support the dog's registration at the KC if there was a problem.  In the event the dog was recognised because the English KC has reciprocal arrangements with continental kennel clubs.  My youngster,  who now is almost four years old,  is indistinguishable from other water spaniels,  being liver puce, and having the special coat pattern of smooth throat, face,  and tail,  accompanied by curls and ringlets on body and legs.  He has been awarded a second prize at Crufts.  He is my current shooting companion and an excellent gundog.  He has a gentle,  but out-going temperament,  and,  touch wood,  he has never had a moment's illness.  Hybrid vigour? 

The story goes on in that one of the eleven,  after a failed AI mating last year,  was taken to America to be mated on Christmas Day 2007 to a US Champion Irish Water Spaniel,  from completely different lines to my dog.  Ten puppies resulted in Holland in Spring this year from this new outcross.  You can follow their stories too at www.greensocks.nl

John