Lemon Roan pup

[Worthy]

  Hi have just been with my mum to look at a litter of working Cocker pups (funny King Charles I know), anyway we were happy with the breeder and saw mum and dad etc. Just wondering though as I have read that Cocker's with a lot of white can be deaf, this particular pup has lemon on the ears and a lemon path on its face (over its eye) and a little on its back with ticked front paws, what do we need to look out for, my mum was smitten with this little fella but now I am worried

[JaspersMum]

Hi have just been with my mum to look at a litter of working Cocker pups (funny King Charles I know), anyway we were happy with the breeder and saw mum and dad etc. Just wondering though as I have read that Cocker's with a lot of white can be deaf, this particular pup has lemon on the ears and a lemon path on its face (over its eye) and a little on its back with ticked front paws, what do we need to look out for, my mum was smitten with this little fella but now I am worried

Can't advise on the above as I haven't a clue and don't think me rude, but there is a big difference in a King Charles and a worker cocker 

Is your mum aware how active they can be? I may be wrong as your mum might be VERY active but make sure she knows that there can be big differences in show v. working cockers so that she can make an informed choice.  pups are so cute no matter the breed so common sense can go out of the window 

[joanne_v]

Pups are often a lot more white when young and they get more colouration with age so it is highely unlikely this pup would be deaf going by the bits of colour you mention. Am sure someone else will be along with evidence.... there was thread last week about a similar thing...

Jaspersmum makes a good point. KCs and workers are very very different....

[Nicola]

I have to third what's been said about breed suitability, there is an unbelievable difference in a CKCS and a Working Cocker, they really are worlds apart... Is your Mum planning to train the dog to work as they are bred to do? Or do agility or something similar with it to channel its energy and drive? Is she prepared for the considerable amount of exercise and training they need, much much more than a Cavalier and more than the majority of show type Cockers? I don't mean to be rude but so many Working Cockers end up in homes which don't know what they are taking on with a working bred gundog and they can't cope with them and that would be an awful shame if that happened to your Mum.

It's very unlikely the pup would be deaf though. A lemon roan pup isn't really any more likely to be deaf than any other colour.

[Helen]

sorry but I agree with Jaspersmum, Jo and Nicola.

I know workers are easier to come by then CKCS but the breeds are planets apart - I would hate for your mum to take on a pup that isn't what she anticipated....

[Henshallboys]

Hi, we have two working cocker 8 month old pups and they need a lot of exercise....we are not going to work them but having had two show type cocker's before and there is a big difference (which we were aware of before purchase).  My Mum could not cope with Bramble & Beri even though they are well behaved and cute.
I agree with the others we have seen a lot of worker pups up for re-homing because they need a lot of attention and exercise.   
You do need to be aware of what you are taking on.

[Worthy]

Thanks for your replies, although I can not be truly sure as I can only go off the pedigree I was shown Kasper is himself majority worker. We both understand the differences in needs between show and worker I have read many a thread (even in my short time as a member)
as i was curious about the origins/temperament of my own pooch.

She's only just 58 so not confined to a wheelchair yet , she has been doing her own research over the last few months into both breeds and had originally leaned towards a KC spaniel purely as they have an exemplary temperament. She has had the opportunity to speak with breeders of each at length, thus she will be able to make an informed decision.

She is a fit healthy women (a gymnastics coach) who could give me a run for my money. She lost her dog Lady 2 years ago aged 17, she was properly trained and right up to the end she was out with her three times a day come wind rain or shine. My mum had definitely seen the good, the bad and the ugly of dog ownership. She has lots of time to give as she works for just a couple of hours in the evenings.

As for the training issues that have been highlighted, I take your point but I very much doubt that everyone who owns a working Cocker has the opportunity, knowledge, skills and land to actually allow them to work as they have been bred to do. Many workers are sold to pet homes and still live a full and happy life so I fell that was a little unfair. As for the prospect of illness etc, not one of us young or old knows what lies ahead or what situation we may find ourselves in. I appreciate the concern but do not like the suggestion that she would not have the ability to meet the dog's needs.  I hope I'm not considered ready for the knackers yard when I get to 58.

You all have a terrific wealth of knowledge about the breed and I admire that so don't think I am being condescending in anyway as that is not my intention. Sometimes things get lost in translation on message boards.

Thanks for your concern and for the reassurance re colour.

[Helen]

Just out of interest, how did you find this litter?

[Colin]

 How many people do you know who have working strain dogs actually work them to their full potential  No one I know on this forum, they may be playing at working dogs like mine, so you do what you think is best and if your best isnt good enough then its down to you to deal with that situation 

I agree with most of your post Carol but think this bit could have been worded a bit more carefully. Although most of us on COL are pet owners we also have many members who take part in activities such as showing, working, agility etc - they have different levels of experience (some are old hands, some are just starting out) but to say that anyone was just 'playing at it' would be a bit unfair.

I say this not to start a row but to hopefully head one off.   

[sportsmonki]

I remember a while ago reading an article on testing for deafness (in border collies).  If I can dig it out I will pm it to you.  I know the most important thing was to test the pup away from its litter mates, so it cant just follow the others.  Mostly it was to do with making noise distractions when the pup is looking at something else, and seeing if there is any reaction (e.g. ears twitching, lifting head, barking, etc).  However, it can be quite hard to tell if I pup is deaf, particularly if it is only on one side.  If you have concerns that the pup is deaf I'd suggest getting a BAER test done. 

[Cob-Web]

Everyone has different opinions regarding working strain dogs (of any breed, not just cockers) being placed in pet homes; sadly, I have seen it go wrong, with tragic consequences and the sheer number of dogs in rescue with working-strain ancestry is a reminder that they really can be a whole lot more than the "average" pet 

But, if someone takes on a working strain dog knowing the possible consequences, and are prepared to do whatever it takes to meet the dogs needs, even if that means making significant changes to their own lifestyle, then that is a different matter completely   

I wouldn't take on a working strain dog (not even a lab, Carol  )  I am unable to make the changes to my life that may be required in order to give the dog the level of stimulation and commitment it might need if it turns out to have a high working drive  My  show-strain cockers offer me a happy medium - they are prepared to hike all day with me, are pretty good agility dogs, learn tricks and basic obedience; but are happy to have a day off, slobbing with me if necessary....I need that flexibility in my life at the moment, and although a wrking strain dog "might" give me that, they are less likely to, and that is a risk I wouldn't take at the moment 

[Cazzie]

I wouldn't take on a working strain dog (not even a lab, Carol  ) 

So what breeds would you advise someone offering a pet home to go for 

Edited to add: What do you think are the differences between my working bred Labs and their show bred cousins that would stop you taking on a Lab like mine

[JaspersMum]

Regarding a pup being deaf, I thought it was only if they were completely white. Any other colour on them, however small, will prevent deafness. I think this is with any breed of dog. My uncle had a pure white boxer, many years ago, and he was deaf, but he was completely white ,which is quite rare. I might be corrected on this

Presumably any colour can be deaf for a number of reasons, Becky & Wilson have just taken on a   blue roan pup who was born deaf   Is it just the odds are greater if all white ?

[Cob-Web]

I wouldn't take on a working strain dog (not even a lab, Carol  ) 

So what breeds would you advise someone offering a pet home to go for 

Edited to add: What do you think are the differences between my working bred Labs and their show bred cousins that would stop you taking on a Lab like mine

The breed is irrelevant, the important thing is the reason the breeder has chosen to pair a specific dog and bitch and the genetic traits they are selecting for 

Any reputably bred pedigree dog of *working* lines will have been selectively bred over generations for their working ability in their particular field - their desire to work, their ability to learn quickly and enjoy learning, their stamina and their natural aptitude to the job they are being bred to do. That may be working in the field, or it may be a protection dog, a racing dog, a sniffer dog, or even a competition dog  There is a recent trend towards breeding "agility dogs" for competition - a sire and dame are selected which have proved to have a natural ability and desire for agility - an aptitude which may be less welcome in pet dog 

Show strain dogs are selectively bred over generations for their conformity to breed standard, and their suitability in terms of temperament to thrive in a show environment......their ability to learn quickly and seek out activity is less of a consideration

Obviously, there are as many (if not more) commercially bred, random litters which have been produced with no consideration to breed standard or working ability.......with a mish-mash of genetic lines in their ancestry. These dogs, pedigree though they may be, are a genetic lottery - they may have a natural tendency to working or they may be the next Crufts winner, it depends what they have inherited from which ancestors   

My point is that people who chose to buy a working line dog from a reputable breeder take on a dog that was bred to be a working dog, not bred to be a pet  

[Eceni]

Presumably any colour can be deaf for a number of reasons, Becky & Wilson have just taken on a  blue roan pup who was born deaf  Is it just the odds are greater if all white ?

There's a link between the 'white' gene (or lack of colour) and congential deafness - so white cats, white boxers, dalmations with insufficient colour, (actually,that's most of them), some strains of white whippets - all have an increased likelihood of being deaf.  I'd not heard of it applying to roan dogs, but it might do.

e