Is a tie essential to conception?

[Jaljen]

:? My 3 yr old bitch (maiden) and 9 month old dog are currently mating in the garden. Well, he mounts her, thrusts and gets off.

Now..this morning I heard yelps and came down to find them tied end-to-end. But not for very long, I think. I estimate it wasn't the 10 to 30 minutes stated in the literature.

We badly want pups but I don't know if conception is less likely without the tie.

Can anyone help?                    

[Magic Star]

Hi Jal

I am certainly no expert and cannot advise you about the whys and wherefores of mating, but one thing that does concern me is that your dog seems extremely young at 9 months, to be siring pups     He seems that he is just a baby himself, infact I am not sure if your dog, has the "necessary bits" to sire :?                    

[Jane S]

Yes it is certainly possible for a pregnancy to result without a tie but I would question the wisdom of allowing your puppy dog to mate your bitch when he is so very young. I personally think a dog should be more mature before you breed from him & of course there are things like eye-testing to consider which is not usually done before 12 months of age. I take it you have had at least your bitch eye-tested although your dog is too young? If you are not sure what eye-testing means, have a look at this site: www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/health.htm

You should never leave any dog & bitch to "get on with it" when your bitch is in season - this is highly risky & could result in painful injury to one or both parties (if for example the bitch pulls away from the dog during the tie). Experienced breeders will closely supervise the mating process & there will generally be at least 2 people present, one to look after the bitch & the other to hold the dog steady. Please, please don't allow your puppy to mate your bitch without supervision!

Jane                    

[LindaW]

Why do you badly want pups? I agree with Jane.                    

[Jaljen]

Thanks for your replies.

I just assumed mating would progress smoothly between two "friends". I read somewhere that bitches mate much more freely with known dogs. This must be quite unusual with pedigree dogs since it is common to take a bitch to a stud animal.

We took our bitch to a stud dog last year but I think she was unwilling. She is positively inviting towards our little boy. Well, not so little a chap.

Is there a physical problem with the sperm of a young male?

I'm not sure if he is capable. They both have splendid temperaments but perhaps he is a little young.

Thanks again.
I'd love to hear from anyone (if there is anyone) who has a successful story with a young sire.                    

[Jane S]

Actually, some dogs will not mate the bitches they live with so it's definitely not always the case that mating will progress smoothly between "friends". Can I ask why you wanted to mate your puppy at such a young age? He may be physically capable of siring puppies but is unlikely to be mentally ready or physically mature & as I said before he is too young to have had the recommended health screening tests. It would have been better to have waited until your bitch's next season & then to have enlisted the help of someone experienced to manage the mating process. Young dogs frequently have no idea what they are doing & need a little guidance whilst maiden bitches can be upset by a clumsy, inexperienced stud dog which is why it's generally advised not to mate a maiden bitch with an inexperienced dog. Obviously this advice is coming too late for you as the "deed" may already have been done but it may help others reading this thread. I would advise that you get your bitch scanned by your vet in about 4 weeks time which will tell you if you are expecting a litter. In the meantime, read all that you can about breeding & rearing a litter & if you haven't already got it, buy a copy of "The Book of The Bitch" by Evans & White which contains invaluable info for the novice breeder.

Jane                    

[Pammy]

In addition to Jane's good advice - have you actually considered whether your boy and girl are a suitable match?

You really should stop them having any further contact from now on - it may be too late and your girl may well be pregnant. If she is then you have to deal with that - if not - then you have the opportunity to remedy the situation and get yourself to a better point of understanding of what breeding puppies is all about - if you want to do it right that is.

Keep them apart, get hold of the book and read it - it's invaluable for anyone thinking of breeding from their bitch. Whatever your bithces condition now - at least it will help you understand what you need to do.                    

[Jaljen]

Well, thanks for the advice.
I see that "Book of the Bitch" is recommended everywhere on this site.

My partner (owner of the bitch) is still of the school of thought that her bitch must have a litter. I disagree but the bitch is hers and my dog is a happy soul. His eyes are clear and they have no common ancestry.

Thanks again.
Perhaps he's not capable anyway.                    

[Jane S]

His eyes are clear .....

Sorry Jaljen but you can't possibly know this - most of the eye conditions which affect Cockers are late-onset meaning they cannot be detected at such a young age, hence the recommendation that breeding dogs are tested annually by a specialist from 12 months old. Your puppy & your bitch may well be unrelated but that does not mean they have compatible pedigrees. Unless you have a good knowledge of hereditary problems in the breed & the breeding lines which have produced them, you are really working in the dark & have no way of knowing whether your bitch & your puppy are a good match

Jane                    

[PennyB]

No doubt you've tried to persuade your partner otherwise. This is sadly a myth that's responsible for far too many dogs ending up in our dog pounds who's fate is undetermined (and sometimes death), even for cockers. I've had both my spaniels neutered as I didn't want to breed from them and they are very happy with it. Breeding should only be undertaken in a responsible manner.

Have you told her of the costs of breeding responsibly (financially and emotionally) as has already been said that its not just a case of getting the dogs together but there is preparation involved. Some of that preparation involves getting various tests done on your dog (eye and hip). The other part of the preparation is the general health of the bitch and also what will happen to the pups when they are born—will you be prepared to take back any pups/dogs if anything goes wrong at the new owners end.                    

[Pammy]

No doubt you've tried to persuade your partner otherwise. .

I doubt it Penny as in the first post Jaljen said

We badly want pups

Now is saying it's his/her partner that wants her bitch to have a litter :?

Jaljen - this is a disaster in the making- if it's true. You are mating a dog that is far too young - not physically but emotionally and mentally, when neither you nor your partner seem to have the first idea of what breeding entails or the full responsibilities that go with responsible breeding.

You seem to think that because the dog and bitch are not related that that makes them a suitable match - not so. You say his eyes are clear - you have already been advised you can't know this - but what about your bitch too - they should both be checked.                    

[Hel]

Just to spell out what mating your 9 mo dog may mean:

1.  Once mated, many dogs are very keen to do it again - and may run off after any female they smell in heat, if allowed.  Are you sure that you walk in places where there are no bitches in heat?  Have you got a very secure garden to ensure that your dog doesn't get out looking for the nearby bitch in season?

2. As he gets older, he may start screaming for the three weeks she is in heat, attempting to dig through any door to get to her.  You will have to keep them completely seperate for that time, unless you want pups from every season.  Anyone who has pups from every season is a mini puppy farm.

You need to get one or both neutered/spayed.                    

[*-Nikki-*]

1.  Once mated, many dogs are very keen to do it again - and may run off after any female they smell in heat, if allowed.  Are you sure that you walk in places where there are no bitches in heat?

Yeah, just to add to that point; once a dog has been used at stud, they do tend to p everywhere :evil: - just to mark their possessions – which means also that they tend to cock their leg on bitches and their surroundings. I can imagine this being a problem, especially as he is in the house :? !                    

[padfoot]

WHY do you want a litter? Are your dog and bitch prime examples of the breed? Are they both from well-bred and eye-tested stock and purchased from reputable breeders? Have you enlisted the advice and help of the breeders of either dog? Are they kc registered?
It's not recommended to breed from a sire who has not been eye-tested and who is only a puppy himself. The best thing you can do is seperate the dogs, and if no pregnancy has occured, wait until the next season.
In the meantime, perhaps you could prepare better for the mating, pregnancy and whelping? And decide why you want to breed?
Rescues are overflowing with dogs needing homes, so it makes sense that we are all responsible, and that people only breed for the right reasons...to improve their chosen breed and to produce happy, healthy, temperamentally sound puppies who they will remain responsible for long after they are homed.

If your bitch is now pregnant, then I hope you will read the book of the bitch and be as responsible as possible with the pregnancy and puppies. I'm sure you will find people here will give you advice regarding any minor problems you may encounter.                    

[bluegirl]

When I was younger and still living at home we had 2 dogs, there were 3 years between them, the bitch being the eldset. Both were fully intact, and when Cindy came into season it was a nightmare. Benji spent the whole 3 weeks crying, and gyrating just at the smell of Cindy. We had to separate them for the whole season. If Cindy was in the kitchen, Benji was in the living room. We did think on one occasion he might have got to her and we had to get the morning after injection,which I might add prolonged her season and his misery for another 3 weeks. It was a nightmare situation, but thats what you're probably heading for!

Good luck
From Karen