Investigation into the English Cocker Spaniel Genotype and Coat Colour.

[Doggiecrazy]

As part of my college course I am doing a report on coat colour crosses in Cocker Spaniels. For this I need to gather informaiton from breeders, the more case studies for my report the better! Please tell me details about your litters to include colours of the parents you mated together, their parents and the colours of the offspring if you can, or any details that you think might help me.

Possible colours:
Black, black and tan, black and white ticked, blue roan, blue roan and tan, black and white, black white and tan
Chocolate, chocolate and tan, chocolate and white ticked, chocolate roan, chocolate roan and tan, chocolate and white, chocolate white and tan
Red, red and tan,
Orange and white ticked, orange white ticked and tan, orange roan, orange roan and tan, orange and white, orange white and tan

Lemon? (are these the same as red but lighter or do they have a dilution gene / gene modifier present?)

Sable, Silver Ash & White
Are these all the colours?

Solid  x  Parti = All Solid
Solid (carrying parti)  x  Parti  =  50% Solid 50% Parti
Solid (carrying parti)  x  Solid (carrying parti)  =  3:1 (solid:parti)

Is this all correct?

Please give me all the information that you can.

Many thanks

Craig McDonald

[Jane S]

red, red and tan, red roan, red roan and tan, red and white, red white and tan

Red and Gold are solid Cocker colours. Red roan/red and white etc aren't used by most UK breeders (it would be either orange or lemon for this particolour). Tan would not be easily visible on dogs with the phenotype of orange roan & tan etc so you wouldn't usually see many puppies registered as this even though genetically they may be this colour.

Orange? Lemon? (are these the same as red but lighter or do they have a dilution gene present?)

Yes the same gene is responsible for red/gold (in solids) and orange/lemon (in partis) and it's just the coat shade which determines which is which. It's generally thought that one or more modifying genes affect how light or dark the shade is.

Sable, Silver Ash & White
Are these all the colours?

Silver Ash is purely theoretical and nobody has managed to breed a pure white Cocker yet (although attempts have been made in the past)

Solid  x  Parti = All Solid
Solid (carrying parti)  x  Parti  =  50% Solid 50% Parti
Solid (carrying parti)  x  Solid (carrying parti)  =  3:1 (solid:parti)

Is this all correct?

Yes but these ratios only work out over large numbers of puppies - you won't necessarily get these expected ratios in individual litters.

You might want to buy a few Breed Record Supplements from the Kennel Club (these list all the litter registrations and include the colour of puppies registered). I used the BRS extensively when I did a similar research study as part of the Dog Breeding Certificate course (long time ago, way before I had access to a computer). You could also get some books from the library which cover Cocker colour inheritance eg Willis' Genetics of The Dog, Robertsons' Genetics For Dog Breeders

Good Luck

[Jane S]

PS I forgot to add that you need to include the "and tickeds" in your list (eg black & white ticked, orange and white ticked etc) which are different to both the roans and the "and whites" (although sometimes it's hard to tell the difference )

[spanielcrazy]

These may help you:

http://ecsca.org/ecscoat.html

http://www.cockerspanielinformation.com/colors/index.html

http://www.stirling-ecs.org/general/color_genes.html

[Coco]

See here http://www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/colours.htm
http://www.stirling-ecs.org/general/rainbow.html
http://www.dogstuff.info/color_genetics_english_cocker.html

[Doggiecrazy]

Silver Ash is purely theoretical and nobody has managed to breed a pure white Cocker yet (although attempts have been made in the past)

In about 2007 ish I went to look at puppies etc at a kennel. They had almost a solid white puppy, it only had some flecks of colour (red/orange) on it's muzzle, the rest of him was solid white!

If you look at their website they have him on there, as a puppy and fully grown. ***Link removed**

So can you get a red roan and a orange roan or are they both the same gene?

Thanks

[Jane S]

Sorry Craig but I've removed your link as we don't allow links to commercial kennel's websites. I have looked at the photo though and it looks to me like a pale lemon not a white puppy (which ties in with your comment about the red/orange flecks)

UK breeders don't use the term red roan - we would use orange roan for this colour (even if the colour is a deep orange/red). You'll find it confusing if you are looking at websites from other countries as what colours are called can vary depending on the country. As this is a UK site, we stick to the terms commonly used in this country

[Coco]

I think i've seen the pup you're refering to on the site and his colour came through as he got older.

A simple search on Goolge of 'colours of cockers' brings up tons of results answering these questions 

[Doggiecrazy]

I think that this could be a common problem with different people calling colours different things. I knew that was going to be a problem as we have a chocolate and white, some people would call him liver and white like a springer.

The solid white/lemon was registered as a lemon roan because they said that you couldn't register him as a white. When he was born he was completely white with nothing else, the red on his face then came through as he developed further.

Sorry forgot about not putting on breeders links.

Q) How do you judge if a puppy is a lemon roan or a orange roan?
Q) Can you get a solid lemon?

Thanks

[Doggiecrazy]

That is what the Cocker Club of GB say on there website, I did look into that about a year ago. I looked at quiet a few different litters and I think that there was only one puppy which at four weeks had black and pink pads but went on to be a blue roan and tan, so there can be the odd exception to the rule. I found this quiet a good indication though and apart from the once it does work 

Has anyone else found this to work well / not work as a method of distinguishing colours?

Q) How else can you tell colours apart when they are first born?

Craig

[Jane S]

I looked at quiet a few different litters and I think that there was only one puppy which at four weeks had black and pink pads but went on to be a blue roan and tan, so there can be the odd exception to the rule. I found this quiet a good indication though and apart from the once it does work 

Has anyone else found this to work well / not work as a method of distinguishing colours?

I wouldn't necessarily expect to be able to identify certain particolours as young as 4 weeks - sometimes you can but often you can't. We've found that with lighter roans, the pads don't necessarily turn completely black until well after 4 weeks old. Those that stay with quite a lot of pink on the pads after 6 weeks or so are usually the "and whites" and those with a teeny bit of pink still remaining (continuing into adulthood) are usually "and white tickeds". Haven't actually had a pup that didn't conform to this so it remains a reliable guide as far as I'm concerned

Q) How do you judge if a puppy is a lemon roan or a orange roan?
Q) Can you get a solid lemon?

If you do a forum search, you'll find these colours have been discussed quite often on COL. Briefly, yes you can get solid lemons (usually only in working lines). Traditionally, lemon is a paler colour than orange and is often associated with liver pigmentation (brown nose, brown foot pads). But working Cocker breeder will often use lemon for dogs which a show breeder would register as orange so it's not just the shade of coat which determines the colour but also whether you're a working or show-type breeder.

[EmmaA]

That is what the Cocker Club of GB say on there website, I did look into that about a year ago. I looked at quiet a few different litters and I think that there was only one puppy which at four weeks had black and pink pads but went on to be a blue roan and tan, so there can be the odd exception to the rule. I found this quiet a good indication though and apart from the once it does work 

Has anyone else found this to work well / not work as a method of distinguishing colours?

Q) How else can you tell colours apart when they are first born?

Craig

Eric had black and pink pads until he was quite old (about 8 months I think). His pads are completely black now and although he does look quite like a black and white ticked I am pretty certain he is a light blue roan (he has a couple of more roan bits on his back) . So I don't think the pads are a fool proof way to judge the colour until they are a bit older 

[Helen]

I think that this could be a common problem with different people calling colours different things. I knew that was going to be a problem as we have a chocolate and white, some people would call him liver and white like a springer.

Thanks

Chocolate is a relatively new and fashionable term and means no different to Liver.  A lot of 'traditional' cocker breeders would call your dog liver and white and as far as I'm concerned my working cocker is a solid Liver.

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

My bitch is definently lemon. shes was very pale when we got her (light golden retreiver colour) she has darked a little but is still lemon coloured. She had black nose, eyes and pads as a pup. Her nose has turned brown but i think that could be the weather and it will darken again in summer. Shes the double of her sire who is lemon with black nose, eyes and pads.

[Nicola]

I think that this could be a common problem with different people calling colours different things. I knew that was going to be a problem as we have a chocolate and white, some people would call him liver and white like a springer.

Thanks

Chocolate is a relatively new and fashionable term and means no different to Liver.  A lot of 'traditional' cocker breeders would call your dog liver and white and as far as I'm concerned my working cocker is a solid Liver.

Ditto here, I would always use the term liver to describe brown or brown and white/roan Cockers. My gold dog's sire is a solid lemon, he's basically a very dilute gold colour with a pinkish brown nose and eye rims. Both of mine are working Cockers.