Author Topic: Hip Scoring Working cockers?  (Read 8334 times)

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Offline Helen

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2009, 09:28:08 PM »
Proven working ability in the field does not necessarily mean field trialling - it means to me a WORKING cocker ie doing the job the breed was created for, working in a beating line flushing and/or picking up.


I've heard this comment an awful lot....

Working cocker's now excel as agility and believe me by what I have seen these competitions take allot of stamina and intelligence to achieve the highest levels and more trainers are becoming aware of the working cocker's capability in this field,

and it's always from people that have never worked their dogs.

I think that breeding like this is perpetuating a 3rd type of cocker, the 'pet' cocker.  That puppies bred like this that have become workers is purely as a result of luck and not of good or careful breeding - and I personally would steer clear of any breeder of working dogs that doesn't work them.

While I support the responsible breeding of working cockers in order to maintain the strain for future generations; I don't think that there is any need to breed working or show cockers specifically for the pet market, as the majority of litters bred for working/show actually end up in pet homes and a lot go on to successfully take part in competitive agility and flyball  ;)

Many Police Forces manage to train rescue dogs, and puppies donated from accidental litters; Devon and Cornwall are seeking rescue spaniels at the moment  ;)

agree completely - and they have their own in-house breeding programmes in some instances  ;)

apologies for going off topic  :shades:
helen & jarvis x


Offline JohnW

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2009, 06:58:33 PM »
quote:
Proven working ability in the field does not necessarily mean field trialling - it means to me a WORKING cocker ie doing the job the breed was created for, working in a beating line flushing and/or picking up.


I've heard this comment an awful lot....



and it's always from people that have never worked their dogs.

I think that breeding like this is perpetuating a 3rd type of cocker, the 'pet' cocker.  That puppies bred like this that have become workers is purely as a result of luck and not of good or careful breeding - and I personally would steer clear of any breeder of working dogs that doesn't work them.



Hmmmm I can only account from my own account of experience of seeing one working kennel when I first looked for my first cocker, while the vast majority are well run and the owner trainers adore their dogs,but you can also get the bad breeders to in the so called working kennels, my first cocker was from a working kennel breeder and to be honest i nearly ran for the hills when I saw the conditions of her dogrun that she was housed in, and when I got her home she did nothing but pass straw for 2 days, after being told she was fed nothing but the best of chicken,fish and meat, He didn't believe in giving his dogs complete or traditional dogfood. She was ravenous for weeks and a very nervous pup that had no socialising, Well sorry but just because you work your dogs doesn't also guarantee a good owner/breeder either. Imagine if i had walked away from the kennel and with a thought that all working kennels were the same as that first one I visited, Thankfully since then I have visited quite a few over recent years and made some really good friends in the working circuit to the point  of now taking up working/beating as well as agility and as well as taking my dogs out for their normal walks 3 times a day.

The argument about the carefull breeding from working kennels, all I can say to that is go through the working sites and try and find champions that have been screened or to the point your normal working studs that are advertised who can clain to be health screened, as i would edge my bets the vast majority haven't even from one or 2 well known kennels.

But getting back to the point in hand it not just about doing separate activities its also getting it rite for future generations in health screening. To which I am also learning to and I have still allot to learn. And again I will repeat i hope more Sporting activities are introduced into the kennel clubs acknowledgements as society becomes more recreational and does more sports with dogs. The working cocker is adapting to new demands as well as what it was originally bred for. There is only one market the pet market it's just some just happen to show their pet dogs or work them as a sideline to our daily lives, recreation. just some do it more than others. ;)



Offline Cob-Web

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2009, 08:29:10 PM »
i hope more Sporting activities are introduced into the kennel clubs acknowledgements as society becomes more recreational and does more sports with dogs.

What other sports did you have in mind?  The Kennel Club has integrated most competitive dog disciplines into their Breed Specific and wider calendars and the very new sports (like CaniX and Dash 'n' Splash) are already being given exhibition space at Crufts and other KC affiliated shows  ;)  Are there other dog-based sports that I don't know about ?  ;)
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Offline Helen

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2009, 08:59:51 PM »
I'm confused John - from your posts it seems you've been breeding working cockers for a good while...but it's only now that you're learning to work them, doing agility and health testing?

we also seem to have a major misunderstanding between how we classify working cockers and how some are bred.  Yes there are big kennels just as there are big show kennels - my breeder for example does not work like this.  He's a gamekeeper who has been breeding working cockers for only 20 years - having red on the pedigree is not something that he particularly cares about - it's the health/temperament/biddability and working ability that he breeds for.  He seldom sells to 'pet' only homes and will only on recommendation, and doesn't need to advertise on forums or free ads sites to get homes as he has a waiting list for his dogs.

He's never gone in for 'popular' FT CH sires and within the working community here there are some very good dogs from good working lines that he uses. His bitches have 2 litters only, they are whelped in the kitchen and then go to an outside heated kennel and run at 3 weeks.

There is no argument to me - diluting the working cocker into 2 categories is sad.   Breeding to me is about enhancing and advancing the breed and I want to be able to have in 20 years time the same type of working cocker I have today - not some indiscriminate dog with it's working ability diluted, and not some kind of cocker spaniel that doesn't even look like a spaniel because it's been bred for different reasons...

the working cocker spaniel has evolved to look the way it does for the job he does - eveything about them from ears to leg feathering to size and shape is designed to help them do their job - change the job, change the purpose and you change the whole dog.

sorry way off topic now  :D
helen & jarvis x


Offline Cob-Web

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2009, 09:07:06 PM »
the working cocker spaniel has evolved to look the way it does for the job he does - eveything about them from ears to leg feathering to size and shape is designed to help them do their job - change the job, change the purpose and you change the whole dog.

My experience is that this is illustrated in the agility discipline; the dogs that I have seen do best are not the dogs that have been selectively bred to *work*, but those which have been either indiscriminately bred with working ancestry but no working training/experience, or those which have been selectively bred for agility  :-\
The latter is something that bothers me, although I would be hard pushed to explain why  ph34r
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Offline JohnW

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2009, 04:56:25 AM »
It looks like we are going to go around and around with our particular views and opinions on how we see the working cocker and what we hope for its future. I think I have always made myself clear that I am a reletive newcomer to health screening but never the less I am now a keen supporter and as I have also said I have allot to learn myself.

Isn't it for the better of the breed that you also veermentally defend that it doesn;t really matter when I started my health screening as long as I, or anyone else for that matter that owns these wonderfull dogs are actually starting to healthscreen. We can all look at each others postings to try and catch each other out when we take a different view but I would rather take the opinion of sometimes its just better to agree to disagree. And lets be honest if all gamekeepers and working kennels kept the working cockers to themselves and didnt sell to non working families non of us would probably be having this wee debate now, would we?

The sporting acheivements I mentioned was say in the field of agility or similar, Working dogs are awarded ftch or ftw as a way of acheivement and reward, It may be nice to award something similar in other sporting fields. In the US flyball has taken off to the point where competitors have breeding programs to compete in this sport. All my points were is that we seem to be as a society no longer satisfied with just showing or as you put it working our dogs in beating retreiving etc, like us our dogs thrive in sports that seem to be taking different routes to traditional pastimes.

I guess we can all argue our corner and it looks like we are never going to agree so can we just agree to disagree on this. I have just had the worst birthday to date and now I am being beaten up by you 2 girls. :'(  Anyways Bailey goes for his hip score test on monday and I am bricking it  ph34r

Offline Cob-Web

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2009, 08:48:08 AM »
we seem to be as a society no longer satisfied with just showing or as you put it working our dogs in beating retreiving etc, like us our dogs thrive in sports that seem to be taking different routes to traditional pastimes.

Perhaps you've been going to the wrong agility clubs, John  ;) - like any competitive field, there will always be people who take it very seriously, but agility, flyball and these other sports have developed in order for pet owners to "have fun" with their dogs, just as conformation shows were when they were developed years ago  ;)   

The difference is, that when conformation shows were introduced, and people began to develop breeding programmes in order to do well, there was not an unwanted dog crisis like there is now.  In the current climate, dog breeding can only be justified to maintain the current diversity of breeds/strains for future generations -  I don't believe that selective breeding in order to establish lines with new skills designed to excel in an emerging sport/discipline is in the best interests of dogs as a species right now  :-\

I guess we can all argue our corner and it looks like we are never going to agree so can we just agree to disagree on this. I have just had the worst birthday to date and now I am being beaten up by you 2 girls. :'(  Anyways Bailey goes for his hip score test on monday and I am bricking it  ph34r

I'm sorry you had a lousy birthday, and never intended to give you a hard time; I'm sure Bailey will be fine, the risks are minimal, particularly compared to whelping  ;)
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Offline Nicola

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2009, 12:57:45 PM »
And lets be honest if all gamekeepers and working kennels kept the working cockers to themselves and didnt sell to non working families non of us would probably be having this wee debate now, would we?

I think you would find that quite a few of us, including Livercake, would be as we do actually train and use our dogs for what they are (or probably better to say *should be*) bred for.

The sporting acheivements I mentioned was say in the field of agility or similar, Working dogs are awarded ftch or ftw as a way of acheivement and reward, It may be nice to award something similar in other sporting fields.

I don't do agility myself other than a beginner's course to see what it was like - the dogs didn't enjoy it nearly as much as they do working - but I do know that there are Agility Champion (AGCH) and Obedience Champion (OBCH) titles awarded by the Kennel Club.
Nicola, Tilly, Rodaidh and Caoimhe x



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Offline JohnW

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2009, 11:02:57 PM »
And lets be honest if all gamekeepers and working kennels kept the working cockers to themselves and didnt sell to non working families non of us would probably be having this wee debate now, would we?

I think you would find that quite a few of us, including Livercake, would be as we do actually train and use our dogs for what they are (or probably better to say *should be*) bred for.

The sporting acheivements I mentioned was say in the field of agility or similar, Working dogs are awarded ftch or ftw as a way of acheivement and reward, It may be nice to award something similar in other sporting fields.

I don't do agility myself other than a beginner's course to see what it was like - the dogs didn't enjoy it nearly as much as they do working - but I do know that there are Agility Champion (AGCH) and Obedience Champion (OBCH) titles awarded by the Kennel Club.

So does the agch or obch actually show on the pedigree as I have never seen these abreviations before? or are they just certificates given seperately? But thanks nicola as I was unaware of these awards.

I am aware that you and livercake and a few others work your dogs and seem to be very knowledgeble about the strain now, and it's great that you are on hand if other working owners need advise, but my point was did you work them when you bought your first cocker?  thats why I made the comment above.(the gamekeeper working kennel comment) As we all have to start somewhere in training and working in the field.

This has gone way off the original topic and I do apologise, but I am always interested in how people got started in working their dogs and what spurred them into it. Mine is I am self employed and self sufficient, and have the luxury my dogs need "allot of my time" more so lately and thats mainly while I am becoming gradually more active with them than just the normal walkies and treking over our local fell, I have read through one or two of the history threads and its kinda like a history lesson as some members have developed from the normal pet homes to what seems to be a full working kennel.  I hope the MODS are ok with the slight diversion however. God I spend too much time on here ph34r

Offline Nicola

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2009, 11:15:06 PM »
So does the agch or obch actually show on the pedigree as I have never seen these abreviations before? or are they just certificates given seperately? But thanks nicola as I was unaware of these awards.

I don't know for sure as it's not really my area but I'm assuming that it does as it's an official title gained by the dog in competition much like conformation showing or field trialling.

I am aware that you and livercake and a few others work your dogs and seem to be very knowledgeble about the strain now, and it's great that you are on hand if other working owners need advise, but my point was did you work them when you bought your first cocker? 

Yes I did, that's what I got him for. I started helping my Stepfather to train working Springers when I was about 12 years old but I was swayed by the Cocker character after seeing them on shoots so that's why I chose them when I was able to get my own dogs to work. I wouldn't have bought working strain gundogs unless I was going to train and work them.
Nicola, Tilly, Rodaidh and Caoimhe x



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Offline Helen

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2009, 07:44:27 AM »
Jarv is my first working cocker - TBH I wasn't particularly keen on working him because I'm not that keen on organised shooting (and would be happier on a rough shoot). 

Like Nicola and her dogs I took mine to agility and he enjoyed it....but not to any of the same extent that he enjoys working, so that's what we've done.  I can honestly say hand on heart that my dog is happiest doing what he was bred for - there is no doubt in my mind about that.

2007/8 season we didn't do much, this season we went out a bit more and now I'm gaining confidence we will go out more regularly and we will continue with his training over the summer.

helen & jarvis x


Offline Jane S

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2009, 09:29:21 AM »
So does the agch or obch actually show on the pedigree as I have never seen these abreviations before? or are they just certificates given seperately? But thanks nicola as I was unaware of these awards.

I don't know for sure as it's not really my area but I'm assuming that it does as it's an official title gained by the dog in competition much like conformation showing or field trialling.

Yes that's right - Agility Ch & Obedience Ch are both official KC titles which get added to a dog's registration in the same way as any other Champion title. There are also Working Trial Champion titles for dogs which have won a certain number of Working Trial stakes. Not sure if any Working Cockers compete in Working Trials but Springers do so am assuming that Working Cockers could also be successful at least in some elements like tracking.


 
Jane

Offline JohnW

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2009, 09:59:12 AM »
Well I have dropped him off at the vets at 8.30. I was told I will get a phonecall at 12ish to let me know when I can pick him up.

Offline vikki.k

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2009, 10:20:28 AM »
Good luck, I'm sure it will feel like a long wait, but be worth it when you get to pick him up.



Offline wrenside

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2009, 02:46:17 PM »
Good luck with the hip scoring!  :D I'm sure Bailey will be fine  :-*

We got our first working cocker because we wanted a dog that was an 'all-rounder' to take shooting with us, and it's proved the best decision we ever made.  :blink:

I applaud your efforts to get your dogs health tested, but I'm afraid that I don't agree with anyone's efforts to breed a 'pet' working cocker aimed at agility etc... it's just not a responsible thing to be doing when there's so many surplus dogs for sale on those websites etc... that are aimed at the so called 'pet' market. But I'm quite happy to agree to disagree on this point with you, although I would encourage you to try and take your dogs out beating on a few shoots etc... to see what it's like  :D

I'm curious, (you don't have to answer this if you don't want to I'm just interested  :blink: ) why did you decide to breed from the 'nervous pup' that you picked up from an uncaring working kennels? I've read back in your previous posts that she was for sale because she was gun shy and therefore a 'failed gun dog'  :huh: It's lovely that you were prepared to take her on, but what were your reasons to breed from her? What were her qualities that made her stand out from the rest?  :huh:

Best wishes,

Mary xx

PS: Happy Birthday!  :D