Hip Scoring Working cockers?

[JohnW]

Yeah Mary I have no problem in answering the question on willow, I didn't pick her from a litter she was 7 to 8 months old I believe when i got her, she was housed with a border terrier, and the guy had 2 other working cocker's in which he said one was pregnant. In his kitchen he had 2 lurcher's housed in a cage that I would have said should have been only used for a small terrier, but here there was 2 lurcher's cramped in that small cage, He kept bragging about dividing his time between taking his cocker's on shoots and taking his lurcher's lamping, The dog runs smelled quite bad and Willow seemed to cower from him, He said she was gun shy and wouldn't leave his side while he was trying to train her.I personally think he just couldn't be bothered with her. We had 2 working springers at the time one was 15 and the other girl was a rescue springer, When we got her home she was a bit nervy and to me had not been treat well, But within a few weeks she started to come around and our springers seemed to pull her around allot too, Bracken our old 15 year old springer really took a shine to her and although he was nearly blind, and deaf (well when it suited him) they got on great. By December that year she was a different dog altogether. But while we were bringing willow round one of our springers developed lymphoma a small lump developed under her ear and well anyone that has had a dog with this horrible cancer will tell you she didn't last long, 2 weeks and she died, and the same month December our old springer had a massive stroke on, we knew he was going to die so we kept him comfortable over the Xmas and the day after boxing day we called the vet in and had him put to sleep. Willow since then has become a very confident dog and although she sometimes is a little shy she greets people and is actually the alpha of our dogs. willow  has had a couple of litters but she enjoys family life and will have no more pups. And her pups are all well and even some owners of her offspring are also members of COL,  I kept raven one of her sons and he is a live wire full of beans and full of confidence and he starts his gundog training on Thursday this week. Willow was never a naturally nervous dog she was just neglected as a pup in my opinion. But she is sometimes like a pup now and the older she gets the more playful she is.    I have always had dogs and I gew up with german shepherds my parents bred them and ours were used as guard dogs for my dads properties as well as family pets so in one form or another I have always had quite a few dogs around me. 

[wrenside]

Hi John,

It's lovely to hear how you brought Willow out of her shell  Her original owner doesn't sound like the best of sorts  well done for offering her a much better home.

Good luck with Raven, hopefully he'll develop into a superb working dog, I bet he'll have a marvelous time when you take him out for his first taste of training 

Is Bailey home? I hope he is ok and recovering from the sedative well 

Mary xxx

[Coco]

Goodluck with the hip scoring and thought I'd reply to add that we got our first working cocker, Wherry, as EX wanted a gun dog that could also go to work with him and the cocker's size and traits fitted that the best. She was always going to be a gundog though if she had have turned out gun shy she would have been a happy family pet (i.e. we wouldn't have ditched her for another) Gizzy the second was designed to be my beating dog though now EX and I have split the opportunity is less so unfortunately she has become more of a pet however, she is much less active than our Wherry so it hasn't been a total disaster I do feel however, that I while I wouldn't be without her now, there is some guilt that she isn't doing the 'job' she loves and would not have had her if I'd have known the circumstances would change

[Nicola]

but what were your reasons to breed from her? What were her qualities that made her stand out from the rest? 

I can't really see where this has been answered. The dog's previous owner didn't work her as he said she was gun shy and as you've said you've never worked any of your dogs I'm assuming you've never proved otherwise with her. She sounds like a nice dog of course but then again aren't they all. Maybe it's me but I can't understand why anyone would breed from an unproven and probably gunshy gundog when the aim of any good breeder should be to improve their chosen breed by using the best, most true to type examples they can otherwise it's just breeding for the sake of it which as Mary said cannot be responsible.

 

[Helen]

but what were your reasons to breed from her? What were her qualities that made her stand out from the rest? 

I can't really see where this has been answered. The dog's previous owner didn't work her as he said she was gun shy and as you've said you've never worked any of your dogs I'm assuming you've never proved otherwise with her. She sounds like a nice dog of course but then again aren't they all. Maybe it's me but I can't understand why anyone would breed from an unproven and probably gunshy gundog when the aim of any good breeder should be to improve their chosen breed by using the best, most true to type examples they can otherwise it's just breeding for the sake of it which as Mary said cannot be responsible.

 

I'd asked the question of John a couple of times but he's never chosen to answer - good to see he clarified things for Mary but I one hundred percent agree with your comments here Nic...so it's not just you, it's me too 

[JohnW]

 
[/quote]

I'd asked the question of John a couple of times but he's never chosen to answer - good to see he clarified things for Mary but I one hundred percent agree with your comments here Nic...so it's not just you, it's me too 


[/quote]

When have you actually asked me about a couple as I think I have missed your questions totally.Where is your questions? is it on this thread or others ? As I can't see those questions on here,

I think you have both made your feelings clear on which way dogs should be bred, And I think in previous threads i have spoken about breeding, well I say breeding I have had 3 litters in 3 years. Your arguments about working kennels and gamekeepers being the superior choice is probably on the whole correct as far as knowledge on working techniques. But you do also have family breeders. And both can health screen,but sometimes both don't, both can sell pups to the home market and sometimes both like myself can sell to the working kennels. I am sorry but breeding lines are only a part of a good working dog, it's probably more down to the trainer. The people that work their dogs who have had pups from me never would have the narrow thinking only to look at other working kennel owners, But they have been experienced trainers and are not recent converts. I think I have always been quite open about myself, and as i would probably guess you will no doubt take the dim view on my opinions, which is fine as we are all entitled to our opions on here, But I have also admitted I have been wrong not to health screen, But how many working kennels screen their dogs.

I have the greatest respect for livercake and nicola but I feel that your on a mission to discredit my efforts, your last  comments have proved most dissapointing as everyone else has asked about Bailey and you both just wanted to re cross examine me again and never even asked about his welfare. I understand your concerns on breeding but I have said i am now on a program to health screen, and I do loads with my dogs but I also feel i am in a no win situation too. 

Bailey by the way apart from being a bit groggy for a couple of hours is fine and cheers to all who asked about him. He and all my dogs should be health screened by the end of the year and I thank COL and Jane for past advise on the best way forward.

[Jan/Billy]

Bailey by the way apart from being a bit groggy for a couple of hours is fine and cheers to all who asked about him.

Really glad to hear Bailey is fine 


Don't think we've seen any pictures yet of your gang have we? Would be nice to see them in the photo section 

[JohnW]

thanks Jan that means alot, I have a photobucket of all my gang its on the bottom of each of my postings

[Angels of Fur]

John, just wanted to say that im glad bailey is recovering from his tests. Also what stunning doggies you have, i must admit i am a bit biased towards your goldies though. Love my goldens!!!! Gorgous!

[Helen]

I'm glad Bailey is ok  

I do freely admit that I disagree strongly with how you have bred in the past so you can understand why I find your turnaround and passion for health testing now a little odd in comparison

[JohnW]

thanks livercake for asking after bailey, i think as far as my thought and turnaround is probably down to being educated by wiser people. And rather than hitting someone over the head telling them they are wrong, these people who I should say advised me did it in a non attacking way.

[vikki.k]

Pleased to hear Bailey is doing ok. 

[Rhona W]

I do freely admit that I disagree strongly with how you have bred in the past so you can understand why I find your turnaround and passion for health testing now a little odd in comparison

Why?  I thought one of the aims of COL is to educate people about cockers of both strains and the health checks that are available. It would appear that John has taken this information on board and has now decided to test his dogs before breeding from them again. Surely he is to be applauded for this, rather than harangued?


As an owner of two working cockers who are not worked but are very happy with their lot (or so I believe  ) , I cannot understand why working cockers are constantly held to be only suitable for homes that will work them. Surely as long as they have enough exercise and stimulation, then it doesn't matter how this is achieved?
Does this rule also apply to show cockers? Are all owners of show cockers who do not show their dogs failing them by not allowing it to do what it was bred for? 


In fact, all dogs were originally bred for a purpose. I wonder how many of them do their proper jobs now and how many are just pets. 

Perhaps we just shouldn't be allowed to have dogs as pets at all. 



John - I'm pleased to hear Bailey is well and I hope the results are good. 

[Colin]

Are all owners of show cockers who do not show their dogs failing them by not allowing it to do what it was bred for? 

I think it differs slightly in that most show dogs these day are pets first and foremost and show dogs second... and it's accepted that pups that aren't the 'pick' of the litter for breeding/showing will go to pet homes, where they should easily fit in as they've been primarily been bred as pets in the first place. That's not to say that workers don't make great pets too - reading the posts on the forum shows it's obvious that they can and do. I think in the case of workers there's a lot more shades of opinion though and as an outsider looking in I can see both sides of the debate - on the one side there are the purists who aren't happy about the possible longterm implications for the strain if working ability becomes compromised in producing dogs solely for the pet market, then there are others who have pet workers who's personal experience is that they can make fantastic pets whether they are worked or not. The downside is the amount of people who aren't aware of the potential differences between the two strains and who aren't prepared for the fact they may be taking on a dog with needs far beyond what they are capable of meeting - particularly as these days there are more dodgy breeders moving in on the working strain, selling them as Cockers that have coats that require less maintenance or as 'rare' colours and don't tell prospective owners which strain they are selling or give them an indication that the dog may require more mental stimulation than the average show Cocker... which is why there are more and more workers ending up in rescue these day, sadly.

I think John is to be applauded for moving towards health testing though and much as many of us may have reservations about previous breeding practices, it does seem that he's open to discussion about how he goes about things in the future... which is refreshing, given the over-defensive attitude we've had on here from some pet breeders (of either strain) in the past... without wishing to sound patronising, I do think he's to be commended for this.

Anywayb I'll butt out now and just carry on reading  ... it's been an interesting discussion... perhaps everyone won't be able to agree but hopefully any differences of opinion can be kept polite and friendly. 

   

[JohnW]

22,508 thats how many cocker pups were registered in the UK 2008, gundog labs were nearly double that, I would guess even if only 10,000 of those cocker's were from working strains the vast majority would go to family homes, To Be honest I am pleased in a way we have members like livercake and Nicola reminding us what cocker's were originally bred for maybe it keeps our feet on the ground in a way, All I can say for myself is i didn't see breeding cocker's as an open cheque book for my own ends and as I have also explained in previous threads if anyone wishes to trawl through my history I  have probably been the unluckiest breeder ever  . I do it because it's something I am interested in and maybe I did set naively but I have not regretted the friends i have made, the contacts I still keep with my puppy owners (sorry but I still see the pups as mine) and these debates only strengthen what i feel about my dogs.

When I read threads from say westcae is that right (well Harveys mam Christina) I am really made up in a way as my girl willow is Harvey's grandmother and to look at Christina's posts and how she talks about Harvey is great for any breeder that cares, well even tho Harvey wasn't directly from me I remember his mother now Freya bullying the other pups in her litter sorry Christina Freya was the little b***** of willows brood but I wish I kept her as I love her more everytime I see her. And I have made some great friends and along the way and have been advised maybe I am offtrack to which I am ever the willing to learn have taken their advise on board. well I am gonna spend a couple of years now learning more about training in gundog trialling and also Agility and although i have also recently been accepted as an accredited breeder by the Kennel Club I am gonna leave any thought of breeding for at least a couple of years. But hopefully some members in time can kinda forgive my naivety in the previous lack of health screening. hopefully we can now draw a line under this debate.