Author Topic: Hip Scoring Working cockers?  (Read 8335 times)

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Offline Cob-Web

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2009, 06:42:54 AM »
22,508 thats how many cocker pups were registered in the UK 2008, gundog labs were nearly double that, I would guess even if only 10,000 of those cocker's were from working strains the vast majority would go to family homes,

I doubt that even 10,000 of them were bred by responsible breeders who know (or care) about the difference between the strains, let alone consider maintaining the characteristics of the breed/strains  :-\

This is my issue tbh; pet breeding is just not necessary at the moment - there are too many unwanted dogs which need new homes  :-\ Yes, there are people who do their research, decide which breed suits them and seek a responsible breeder (one who shows, or works, their dogs and only breed puppies from exceptional dogs) to obtain a puppy - but most puppies in the UK are bought on a whim, with no research or consideration of the demands of the breed, the health of the litter or the long term implications of their choice. A rescue pup, or an "accidental" litter, will offer those families what they seek; there is no need to deliberately breed more *pedigree* cockers (or any other breed) for the pet market  :-\

Health testing is commendable; but even healthy "pets" find themselves in rescue, and even PTS because there are more dogs that homes  :'(
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Offline Helen

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2009, 08:18:59 AM »
Any comments Nicola and I make are borne out of a passion for the breed. 

I respect you John for finally agreeing that you have had 'turn around' in thinking and that your past breeding practices are now changing.

If this means one person looks at this thread and decides NOT to breed from a gunshy, nervy, fearful pet dog then that is good enough for me  :shades:

Along with health tests and temperament a good working cocker stud needs a sound pedigree with good working lines (not show x worker)  which I assume is the case, and I also assume that great care will be taken in not bringing a large  number litters of 'pet' puppies into this financial climate.   Rhona, there will always be people who choose to breed from their 'pets' (rightly or wrongly) so there will always be pups available for this kind of ownership and you can buy thousands of them online.

Another indicator to me of a good breeder is one that has a waiting list for their pups and doesn't need to advertise....unfortunately now there are more and more advertised on free-ads which I think is a sad indictment for the breed.  Completely agree with Cob-webs view.

BTW....here's a link regarding unanswered question....

http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=55342.msg805056#msg805056


helen & jarvis x


Offline babushka

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2009, 08:41:01 AM »
Glad Bailys ok after his GA. Just looked at your pics, Lilly is gorgeous :luv:

Offline Rhona W

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2009, 10:57:44 AM »
The downside is the amount of people who aren't aware of the potential differences between the two strains and who aren't prepared for the fact they may be taking on a dog with needs far beyond what they are capable of meeting - particularly as these days there are more dodgy breeders moving in on the working strain, selling them as Cockers that have coats that require less maintenance or as 'rare' colours and don't tell prospective owners which strain they are selling or give them an indication that the dog may require more mental stimulation than the average show Cocker... which is why there are more and more workers ending up in rescue these day, sadly.  
I agree that there are people like that out there breeding purely for financial gain, but John doesn't sound like he is one of them.  :-\  And yes, more workers are ending up in rescue as they become more popular. But whether or not it is increasing more than any other dog breed, I wouldn't know. :dunno: I am only aware of how many cockers are in rescue as I have cockers. I do know there are also thousands of dogs in rescues that aren't cockers.

I think John is to be applauded for moving towards health testing though and much as many of us may have reservations about previous breeding practices, it does seem that he's open to discussion about how he goes about things in the future... which is refreshing, given the over-defensive attitude we've had on here from some pet breeders (of either strain) in the past... without wishing to sound patronising, I do think he's to be commended for this.   
Which is my point really.  :D


Rhona, there will always be people who choose to breed from their 'pets' (rightly or wrongly) so there will always be pups available for this kind of ownership and you can buy thousands of them online.
Don't really understand that comment. I don't think I ever said there wouldn't be. :dunno:

Offline Nicola

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2009, 11:42:07 AM »
Any comments Nicola and I make are borne out of a passion for the breed. 

I respect you John for finally agreeing that you have had 'turn around' in thinking and that your past breeding practices are now changing.

If this means one person looks at this thread and decides NOT to breed from a gunshy, nervy, fearful pet dog then that is good enough for me  :shades

Another indicator to me of a good breeder is one that has a waiting list for their pups and doesn't need to advertise....unfortunately now there are more and more advertised on free-ads which I think is a sad indictment for the breed.  Completely agree with Cob-webs view.

Absolutely agree also.

Any breeder who health tests their dogs is to be commended but that alone does not make a good breeder or mean that they are breeding good dogs, it's only part of the picture as Helen has also said. Fitness for purpose, being true to type, working ability, temperament, pedigree... these are all also vital factors in breeding truly outstanding examples of working Cockers and if you don't want to breed truly outstanding examples then why bother?! As others have said there are far too many pet dogs out there already.

I do realise that a lot of people have working Cockers as pets and some of them are ok with this lifestyle but unfortunately a lot are not as we are seeing with the ever increasing numbers of them ending up in rescues and with behavioural issues - I do find it rather disingenuous when people paint a different picture of their dogs here than they do elsewhere.
Nicola, Tilly, Rodaidh and Caoimhe x



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Offline wrenside

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2009, 02:11:44 PM »
Glad to hear that Bailey's okay  :blink: fingers crossed that his scores are good!  :D

Below I have written down my thoughts on breeding from working cockers that are kept as pets, this isn't aimed at anyone, I just thought that it might prove an interesting read  :blink:

I personally think that active homes for working cockers have been shown to suit them relatively well, so in this instance an 'active pet' home works well for this breed. Although as has been previously pointed out due to unscrupulous breeders and the drive for 'rare' colours many working strain or working x show are ending up in homes that have not been told about, and therefore cannot cope with, the extra energy levels etc....so this is an emerging problem  :-\
I am not at all keen on the 'active pet home' owners taking the decision to breed from their pet as they have in no way proven that their dog is better, or is as good as, the core working stock that are known to be 'fit for purpose' in the UK. If everyone bred from their 'pet' working cockers then we'd have a huge explosion of very average pups most of which would either not find homes or go to unsuitable homes because the well informed, and experienced working cocker owners wouldn't touch them with a barge pole  :-\ .
Therefore, in my opinion if you're considering breeding from your dog you've got to ask yourself these questions: What makes your dog better than everyone elses? How will breeding from your dog improve, or maintain the high standards of the breed? What qualities do you think any pups that your dog produces will have that will set them apart from everyone elses pups in an already saturated market? (rare colourings, easily manageable coat etc... are not acceptable 'qualities' to justify breeding a working breed in my opinion!). Why should you produce 'pet quality' pups when there's already far too many surplus pet puppies being bred in the UK?

If you feel that you are the owner of an exceptional working cocker, but haven't worked it because you got the dog as a pet, I would encourage you not to breed from it. Instead leave the breeding to the owners of the working cockers who have been proven in the field of trialling, beating, or both  ;) If you really want to breed from your 'pet' and think that the breed would be losing something really special if your dog didn't have pups (remember most litters have between 4-7 puppies, so your dog is likely to have siblings which carry the same/similar genetic traits and they might have already been bred from) then I think you owe it to the dog to make the effort to train it up to the gun and take it out into the field to show off it's excellent qualities and also to confirm that your dog really is a gem. Once you have confirmed that your dog is indeed a very special example you must run all of the relevant health checks on it to make sure that it is physically sound. Then you have to be very careful in selecting the best possible match to mate your dog with.
If your dog really is something special then it is at this planning stage that you will be inundated with people keen to put their names down for a pup from the planned mating, this is why well bred working cockers are rarely openly advertised.  :blink:

So in my opinion a litter of working cockers from an unproven dam, sire, or both, shows that the 'breeder' hasn't thought things through properly, has most likely cut corners, doesn't have the breeds best interests at heart, and is therefore in my view not a 'breeder' that I would want to deal with when sourcing my next working dog. I guess the new docking laws will help in identifying the breeders that do use their dogs for work, although the 'evidence' that one has to produce to get pups docked is relatively easy to obtain falsely  :-\

Anyway, those are just my thoughts on the matter. I commend anyone who strives to health test any potential breeding dogs that they have, although as has been said in previous posts, this is just one aspect of responsible breeding, and on its own is in my opinion not a green light to start breeding    :police:

John, well done for planning ahead and getting all of the health testing (and hopefully some gun dog work!  :-*) done before any more litters are considered  :blink: Have you thought about getting Willow Optigen tested? I say this because as she has had a few litters it might be worth finding out her PRA status, as hopefully she will be clear and this will guarantee that none of her pups that she's ever had will develop this awful illness themselves.

Mary xxx

Offline summer

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2009, 02:20:55 PM »
Having spoken to john in depth this morning about his goals for his future breeding programme,
i now commed him for now doing all the health screening he has decided to do, and also deciding not to breed for a couple of years till he has finished all his dogs gun dog and agility training. in fact john has just enrolled with |(in my opinion |) one of the best trainers in Northumberland

he has taken all comments on broad and has stayed polite through out this entire discussion which i also commend him for.

hello livercake I'm a bit confused why would you assume Bailey is half and half???? i take this to mean you think hes half show and half working?

he is from excellent working stock! in fact i did not breed Bailey but i owned Baileys father whom was an amazing working dog.
(that we sadly lost two years ago this December 3rd..|)

Offline hollyd443

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2009, 02:38:12 PM »
Pleased to hear Bailey is doing okay after his GA.  :luv:

Offline JohnW

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2009, 03:36:18 PM »
Any comments Nicola and I make are borne out of a passion for the breed. 

I respect you John for finally agreeing that you have had 'turn around' in thinking and that your past breeding practices are now changing.

If this means one person looks at this thread and decides NOT to breed from a gunshy, nervy, fearful pet dog then that is good enough for me  :shades:

Along with health tests and temperament a good working cocker stud needs a sound pedigree with good working lines (not show x worker)  which I assume is the case, and I also assume that great care will be taken in not bringing a large  number litters of 'pet' puppies into this financial climate.   Rhona, there will always be people who choose to breed from their 'pets' (rightly or wrongly) so there will always be pups available for this kind of ownership and you can buy thousands of them online.

Another indicator to me of a good breeder is one that has a waiting list for their pups and doesn't need to advertise....unfortunately now there are more and more advertised on free-ads which I think is a sad indictment for the breed.  Completely agree with Cob-webs view.

BTW....here's a link regarding unanswered question....

http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/discuss/index.php?topic=55342.msg805056#msg805056




Since the thread you linked to and by the way you didn't ask me why I bred willow I think I have been totally honest and It's seems now irrelevant to go to past threads again to make your point, i also think i have gone into much greater detail on Willow since then so I am confused why you fealt the need bring it forward. Willow was classed as gunshy by what I would rate as very bad Working owner, But i often wonder just because he is a working kennel  you would class his practices and comments in a higher esteem. And to assume I have bred a nervous dog is ridiciculous as i think i also stated willow is now a very confident dog and has been since not long after buying her. And I think I have also said more than once I have made past errors. But I am not going to apologise for them as to apologise means I regret the experience, Although I have learned and am still learning again to which I admit.

Again we are going around and around and to be honest I think most reading this thread now will probably be frustrating to other members as the same things are being picked over, I am sorry but one or 2 who claim to be passionate about the dogs would rather come on and not ask after the welfare of bailey but would rather pick over and go back to old threads looking for comments that are not even relevant to current position of the thread in discussion. While I commend you for taking the time to go over my history I don't think you actually asked why I bred willow who in that particular thread either, but nevertheless another discredditing opinion comes out yet again about this trembling nervous gunshy wreck of a dog just to make a point about bad breeding. We all know your feelings as you keep repeating them several times on the same thread. All this will do is give the impression of  bullying, even tho we all know your intentions are admirable and to a point I have listened and taken board your comments, it's still not nice when instead of simply commending someone for actually starting to see your side of the argument, negative comments and flippint remarks come back again.

I am sure we will see new comments appear and the usual comments " because we care about the breed etc". I totally respect anyones opinion on breeding ethics and to be honest although Wrenside on the whole has disagreed I think her comments are probably the best as they were non attacking but very constructive. Hopefully in future other members can put their sticks away and take note you can disagree and even try to educate novices on here but do it in a way that does not demean. I thank everyone for asking about Bailey and I ask for no more comments on breeding ethics as I think we have all made our point on this. I will not be replying to this thread anymore as I feel this thread is not constructive anymore, And I would hate for a moderator to have to step in. >:(

John. ;)




Offline Jane S

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Re: Hip Scoring Working cockers?
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2009, 04:21:42 PM »
I think it's time for this one to be put to bed now that John has had a chance to reply to earlier comments ;)

I'd just like to echo what Colin said earlier though - it is very encouraging to come across someone who is willing to listen and learn and re-evaluate their plans accordingly. All to often when a new or would-be breeder is questioned on their motives for breeding, the response is either too flounce off in a huff or to start throwing insults around whereas John has stuck in here and remained polite. Just shows we can have interesting discussions with strong opinions expressed without it turning into a virtual punch up :005:



Jane