Author Topic: Sable colouring.  (Read 9265 times)

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Offline heelers n cockers

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Re: Sable colouring.
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2009, 12:00:56 AM »
The problem with Sables is that they are soooo irresistable when they are puppies  :luv: :luv: :luv:



oh my!  :luv: now you've gone and done it! gorgeous, gorgeous and gorgeous again  :luv: (i wonder if i could squeeze more than four cockers in our house!  :005:) sigh, i think oh still wants his gold/orange roan though!  ::) so i will just have to wait!  :005:
Cocker Spaniels leave their pawprints on your heart......
Lancashire Heelers however.....leave their teethmarks on your trousers!

Champagne for my real friends...Real pain for my sham friends....

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Offline 6thSense

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Re: Sable colouring.
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2009, 10:06:39 AM »
I am still on the fence wether I like this colour, I guess it will possibly grow on me :-\

I don't like the colour, think i'm one of the very few on here who don't.   Not sure why I don't like, it just doesn't appeal to me.  

............I'm with you Jeanette! Definately an 'aquired' taste but then if we all liked the same it would be a very dull world ;)



Exactly, I have a black and tan and theres people who either love them or hate them, whatever the colour they're all gorgeous cockers.

I agree. I Adore all Cockers regardless off size, colour, sex, but I just think this colour has something.  ;)
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Offline Bryning

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Re: Sable colouring.
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2009, 10:59:23 AM »
They are often confused for black and tan to those who haven't seen them before .
Their adult coat could be described like that of a GDS I suppose . All single black sable hairs start off golden /red at the root and along the hair shaft they become black .
A sable has golden hair under the belly ,on the chest and on lower legs ,and the back, thigh and upper arm are the sable colour as described above .
Here is an adult



I would not consider that to be sable to be honest.  In border collies we would call this saddle pattern.  A 'true' sable would not have such large areas of solid black and they would appear sable patterned from birth.

There are 3 variations of the agouti gene that occur....tan point, saddle pattern and sable, these are all patterns rather than colours so they can act on any base colour. 

Here's some pics of my latest litter (which are all spoken for ;)) at 3 weeks old

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35934609@N03/sets/72157615882351806/

They are all sables and tanpoints but there is no mistaking which is which even at this early age.  The pale coloured sable is actually a blue sable (so the sable pattern is acting on a diluted blue base colour)

There's a pic of mum and dad in their too.  He is sable and she is tan pointed, the pups are exactly what I expected colour-wise.

There is more than one gene that controls sable/tan point.

Here is the explaination of how it works from my website (sorry if it's a bit complicated but it's the simplest way I could explain it!)

Agouti - 'A' and Dominant Black - 'K'
This is the gene responsible for producing sable, seal, saddleback pattern and tricolour in border collies...there are numerous alleles of this gene and it is still not fully understood but I am concentrating on those that concern border collies.

ay - sable
at - tanpoint - recessive to ay (as such a tricoloured dog cannot carry sable)

As we already know each individual has two copies of each gene but this isn't quite as straightforward as some of the other genes we've mentioned...these genes exhibit variable incomplete dominance...

Genetically pure for sable (ay-ay) is generally clear sable in colour, while heterozygous (ay-at) is usually sable with some extent of darker fur in the coat (shaded sable). This is incomplete dominance (one copy of the recessive allele produces some effect).

ayay - clear sable
ayat - shaded sable
atat - tanpointed

But...it doesn't end there...there is another gene that effectively switches the agouti genes on and off...this is referred to as dominant black and is written as 'K'

It is thought that ALL border collies have the genes for sable and/or tanpoint but their ability to express and produce these colours is not only determined by their presence and combinations but also by those of the Dominant black 'K' genes.

KK - Homozygous dominant black, cannot be or produce sable/tanpoint regardless of the A alleles
Kk - Heterozygous dominant black, cannot be sable or tanpointed but can produce the patterns it carries on the A alleles
kk - Homozygous, will exhibit sable or tanpoint depending on it's A alleles

In conclusion...
KK atat - neither sable nor tanpointed, cannot produce sable or tanpoint but can pass the tanpoint genes on to offspring
KK ayat - neither sable nor tanpointed, cannot produce sable or tanpoint but can pass the tanpoint or sable genes on to offspring
KK ayay - neither sable nor tanpointed, cannot produce sable or tanpoint but can pass the sable genes on to offspring

Kk atat - carries tanpoint
Kk ayay - carries sable
Kk ayat - carries sable and tanpoint

kk ayat - shaded sable coat colour (also carries tanpoint)
kk ayay - clear sable coat colour
kk atat - tanpointed coat colour

Any solid colour can exhibit sable or tanpoint pattern (black, chocolate, blue, lilac); the pigmentation and eye colour of the dog will usually reveal it's base colour in the case of sables. Because the sable gene affects the extension of eumelanin (similar in effect to the extension gene) in it's extreme (clear sable) merling will not be visible, as such merle to sable matings are generally not a good idea.






Cheers
Nat, Teal and Drake x
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Offline hollyd443

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Re: Sable colouring.
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2009, 11:26:19 AM »
Eeeeek Nat - how on earth do you get your head round all that!!  :o :D

There are 3 variations of the agouti gene that occur....tan point, saddle pattern and sable, these are all patterns rather than colours so they can act on any base colour. 

Here's some pics of my latest litter (which are all spoken for ;)) at 3 weeks old

http://www.flickr.com/photos/35934609@N03/sets/72157615882351806/

All spoken for - No fair!! That lovely little sable boy had my name on him!!  :005:

Offline Bryning

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Re: Sable colouring.
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2009, 11:54:25 AM »
Eeeeek Nat - how on earth do you get your head round all that!!  :o :D

I have to admit, of all the colour genes I've dealt with, this one was the hardest to get straight in my head and I still have to stop and have a good think when someone asks me a question on it! lol

I've never really liked sable as a colour but to be honest there are so few good ones out there I think that's probably what put me off!

It's only when Rico unexpectedly cropped up in Quinn's litter (black/white mated to black/white) that I started to look into the genetics of it and he grew into the most stunning pup, and now adult dog, that I'm quite smitten with him and the colour  :luv:
Cheers
Nat, Teal and Drake x
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Offline Katiee

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Re: Sable colouring.
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2009, 01:29:54 PM »
Excuse me for being thick!!! :005: but does it work the same for cockers as the border collies??
Am just interested in the genetics, sad I know!!! ph34r :005:

Offline Bryning

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Re: Sable colouring.
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2009, 02:02:00 PM »
Excuse me for being thick!!! :005: but does it work the same for cockers as the border collies??
Am just interested in the genetics, sad I know!!! ph34r :005:

I don't see why not, most colour genes are common across all breeds so BC's and cockers do share a lot of common colour genetics.  I'm guessing that sable genetics is common between breeds because it's a very common colour in cross breeds.

The best way to 'prove' it would be to apply the genetics I've described to a known sable breeding programme and see if it fits. 
Cheers
Nat, Teal and Drake x
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"The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue"

Offline 6thSense

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Re: Sable colouring.
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2009, 02:42:05 PM »
Gosh. This is all so fascinating, but extremely complicated.  :shades: I had never thought of it in crossbreeds, but you are right there probably is a lot with that colouring. So is tan point the same as black and tan or is this a completely different colour.  :huh: Excuse my ignorants.  :-\ Your pups are GORGEOUS by the way.  :luv:   :luv:  :luv:   :luv:
xxxxxx 🐕 Sarah & 'Chamerl' Cocker Crew 🐕 xxxxxx

Offline Bryning

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Re: Sable colouring.
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2009, 02:57:09 PM »
So is tan point the same as black and tan or is this a completely different colour.  :huh: Excuse my ignorants.  :-\ Your pups are GORGEOUS by the way.  :luv:   :luv:  :luv:   :luv:

Thanks  :D

Yes tan point is the same as black/tan (i.e black with tan points).  You could say tan point is the correct term for the gene while the colour would be black/tan, liver/tan, roan/tan etc or tricolour as we call it in BC's (because they are always whatever colour and white)

In answer to your original question...no, you don't need sable colouring to breed sable.  You need at least 1 parent to either be sable or carry the gene for sable and you need the other to be tan pointed/sable or carry the gene for tan point/sable.

i.e. a sable mated to a tan point would produce ONLY sable and tan pointed pups unless they also produced gold/red/lemon (whatever you want to call it) which will mask both the tan point and sable pattern.  Those pups would genetically be tanpointed or sable you just wouldn't be able to see it.

As with tan point, sable can act on any base colour so you could have black sable, liver sable, sable and white or sable roan.
Cheers
Nat, Teal and Drake x
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Offline Jane S

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Re: Sable colouring.
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2009, 03:21:11 PM »
Excuse me for being thick!!! :005: but does it work the same for cockers as the border collies??
Am just interested in the genetics, sad I know!!! ph34r :005:

I'm not sure it does actually :-\ As already mentioned above, an American gene lab have tested samples from English Cockers and have found the sable mutation to be different to that for American Cockers, despite the two breeds being quite closely related - it follows it could also be different to Border Collies. What do you think Bryning?
Jane

Offline Bryning

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Re: Sable colouring.
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2009, 04:44:49 PM »
I'm not sure it does actually :-\ As already mentioned above, an American gene lab have tested samples from English Cockers and have found the sable mutation to be different to that for American Cockers, despite the two breeds being quite closely related - it follows it could also be different to Border Collies. What do you think Bryning?

Well, without knowing which American Gene lab and what differences you're referring to it's hard to say.  There are many differences in the modifiers that control the extent of shading, many of which are not known.  These are different in different breeds but the basic mode of inheritance of tan point/saddle pattern and sable are the same.

This is an addition to the section on my website that I didn't quote earlier...
**update 30.03.07**
The assumption by breeders, that the differences in the degree of shading in sable dogs is determined by whether they are homozygous or heterozygous for ay, is now known to be not entirely accurate; it is believed that some to all of this variation is caused by another (as yet unidentified) gene. DNA tests to distinguish this allele "a" in Shelties, Tervuren/Groenendael, and a few other breeds are now offered by Healthgene based on recent findings.


I'm guessing that this is where the differences in English and American cockers may lie, not in the standard mode of inheritance itself.  Unless you know more about it?  What do you think?
Cheers
Nat, Teal and Drake x
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"The reason a dog has so many friends is because he wags his tail instead of his tongue"

Offline Jane S

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Re: Sable colouring.
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2009, 05:22:48 PM »
Well, without knowing which American Gene lab and what differences you're referring to it's hard to say.

Vetgen is the company currently researching the sable colour in Cockers and according to them they have found the mutation responsible for sable in English Cockers and it's "different to the mutation found in many other breeds including American Cockers" (quote from an email sent by Vetgen requesting further samples for testing)

Quote
I'm guessing that this is where the differences in English and American cockers may lie, not in the standard mode of inheritance itself.  Unless you know more about it?  What do you think?

I don't know anymore than what I've read ;) Certainly I always understood sable in Cockers was inherited as you describe on your website although some breeders seem to have different theories and even claim to have created various sable patterns which never existed before - of course that can't be true as all they've done is bring to light what was already there in the genes. There do seem to be some anomalies though eg I thought that in sable Cockers, the individual hairs are all one colour (not banded as in breeds with the wolf-sable gene). However Spanielkiss says above that there is banding on her sable (ie the root of the hair is different in colour to the tip). Tis a puzzle and no mistake :005:



Jane

Offline ClaireN

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Re: Sable colouring.
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2009, 10:15:35 PM »
The hairs are indeed bi-coloured along the back of my sable roans  :D

Offline spanielkiss

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Re: Sable colouring.
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2009, 09:27:36 PM »

[/quote]

I would not consider that to be sable to be honest. 



Hi Bryning
Xenia has no solid black on her , although the photo looks so .
She has been colour tested as has her son .Here is an extract from a result .

Test
Test Name: 8144 A-LOCUS AGOUTI
Result
Genotype: AY/AY
Interpretation: The dog is homozygous for the allele AY/AY at the ALocus.
That means the coat is fawn/sable in the
pigmented areas if the A-Locus is expressed (depending
on the K-Locus).
The dog can only pass the dominant AY-Allele onto its
offspring.


Also Forgot to mention I have now also used Laboklin UK to colour test . The gentleman there is amazing to talk to , so full of knowledge( I think you would enjoy a talk with him t too Jane S ), and the tests are done very quickly .

Hope this helps
Sally