Back Yard Breeders

[Ninasmum]

Jane, i just think that if the KC is a private club with no legal powers for inspection etc then how come it is respectable to take the puppy registration fees/transfer of ownership fees etc without ever checking out (at least randomly) the breeders?  It just seems (imo) they are happy to take in the funds but unless i am missing something give nothing in return. 

Well I don't know about "respectable" - the KC provides services (ie litter registration and a traceable pedigree database) in return for a fee & those fees goes to funding all the KC's other activities (including funding health research) I think if we want a KC that would physically all inspect breeders (not just ABS members) and only register pups from from fully health tested parents etc, then we would have to accept that the KC would lose all the breeders that would not want this which would mean the KC's income would plummet and the KC would then need to find some other way of replacing that income (which I suspect is the real reason they won't do this). On the one hand, I would love only "good" breeders to be able to use the KC reg system but on the other hand, I find the fact they do register not so good breeders quite useful as their activities are then traceable (due to the publicly available nature of litter registrations) so we can see what they are doing (which we couldn't if they did not use the KC). It's a difficult one

Sorry 'respectable' was meant to be 'acceptable'    I know it is a difficult one but i just feel if they did occasional random checks, it would help the welfare of the bitches/puppies, and possibly in some cases make some breeders 'think again'.  I realise that long term the KC would lose revenue but this could always be recouped by slightly raising the registration fees.   

[lindseyp]

Sorry lindseyp the comment was not directed at you, sorry if you felt it was.
It is just how I feel personally and why I chose to have my girls spayed,
Apologies again 

No apologies needed.........know what you meant & where you're coming from

(but shows how editing can distort things & get misunderstood )

[joanne_v]

Mark I think you sound like you have done your utmost to research this topic and should be commended for it. If you did have a litter then you would most likely be doing a better job than most others and would hopefully have well raised and well bred pups. In the grand scale of things I dont agree with breeding a 'pet' dog. Not because you ( I dont mean you personally  ) cant do it properly but simply because there are too many dogs being bred and the only way to fix the problem is to only allow professional breeders to do it and to have a decent accreditation scheme. However that is not going to happen anytime soon. I would love to breed a litter for the experience but apart from reasons already mentioned (and the fact all my dogs are neutered/spayed) I could not risk something going wrong and either my dog or pups dying or there being large medical costs which I cant afford. I could offer lifetime back up to pups and vet people well but there are no guarantee's that 5 years down the line that will still be the case. There are so many ifs and buts. I dont like to use labels like BYB, reputable breeder etc as again there are so many variables and it depends on personal opinion. Its an impossible topic to conclude as each of us have different opinions and there is no right or wrong.

You also have to remember that for simply joining a forum about a certain breed that makes all of us enthusiasists and not just normal pet owners so you would get a totally different viewpoint from the general public.

[mcphee]

Mark I think you sound like you have done your utmost to research this topic and should be commended for it. If you did have a litter then you would most likely be doing a better job than most others and would hopefully have well raised and well bred pups. In the grand scale of things I dont agree with breeding a 'pet' dog. Not because you ( I dont mean you personally  ) cant do it properly but simply because there are too many dogs being bred and the only way to fix the problem is to only allow professional breeders to do it and to have a decent accreditation scheme. However that is not going to happen anytime soon. I would love to breed a litter for the experience but apart from reasons already mentioned (and the fact all my dogs are neutered/spayed) I could not risk something going wrong and either my dog or pups dying or there being large medical costs which I cant afford. I could offer lifetime back up to pups and vet people well but there are no guarantee's that 5 years down the line that will still be the case. There are so many ifs and buts. I dont like to use labels like BYB, reputable breeder etc as again there are so many variables and it depends on personal opinion. Its an impossible topic to conclude as each of us have different opinions and there is no right or wrong.

You also have to remember that for simply joining a forum about a certain breed that makes all of us enthusiasists and not just normal pet owners so you would get a totally different viewpoint from the general public.

Good point Joanne. There are many many owners who constitute the public, and do not feel the need to increase their knowlege or understanding of dog ownership.

[mark1]

What is the motivation for breeding and what makes it acceptable? What is improving the breed?

You don't need 'permission' to breed from your girl

Whilst legally you have the 'right' to breed from your bitch and don't need anyone's ' permission' I do feel that ethically we do NOT have the 'right' to breed just because we can, when there are already too many puppies and not enough homes for them  

I totally agree, how do 'reputable' breeders decide when there are enough homes for them to have a litter?

reputable breeders have large waiting lists and no need to advertise their litters. There puppies have homes before the bitch is even mated.

As has already been said there are that many dogs in rescue IMHO the only people who should be breeding are those with long term plans on how they will keep the breed going for future generations and keep it as healthy and true to type as possible.

People who are breeding their pets without an interest in the breed and just breeding a one off litter I don't understand or see the point in. Why put their bitchs through it, what is there to gain 

I'm sorry but I do feel that I'm banging my head against a wall here. It seems I am just getting the party line. So every reputable KC reg breeder doesn't advertise?
Let me be honest I think there are a small percentage of altruistic people who wish to preserve the Cocker Spaniel for future generations but a larger percentage who have other reasons.  I still haven't heard anybody answer why someone classed as a reputable breeder can have litters whenever they want and sell 99% to the pet market and that's ok as it's somehow dressed up as improving the breed.

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

What is the motivation for breeding and what makes it acceptable? What is improving the breed?

You don't need 'permission' to breed from your girl

Whilst legally you have the 'right' to breed from your bitch and don't need anyone's ' permission' I do feel that ethically we do NOT have the 'right' to breed just because we can, when there are already too many puppies and not enough homes for them  

I totally agree, how do 'reputable' breeders decide when there are enough homes for them to have a litter?

reputable breeders have large waiting lists and no need to advertise their litters. There puppies have homes before the bitch is even mated.

As has already been said there are that many dogs in rescue IMHO the only people who should be breeding are those with long term plans on how they will keep the breed going for future generations and keep it as healthy and true to type as possible.

People who are breeding their pets without an interest in the breed and just breeding a one off litter I don't understand or see the point in. Why put their bitchs through it, what is there to gain 

I'm sorry but I do feel that I'm banging my head against a wall here. It seems I am just getting the party line. So every reputable KC reg breeder doesn't advertise?
Let me be honest I think there are a small percentage of altruistic people who wish to preserve the Cocker Spaniel for future generations but a larger percentage who have other reasons.  I still haven't heard anybody answer why someone classed as a reputable breeder can have litters whenever they want and sell 99% to the pet market and that's ok as it's somehow dressed up as improving the breed.

I gave MY opinion not a party line.

If a breeder has to advertise to sell their pups, wether they show or not to me personally they are not a reputable breeder and no where did I say they were.

[seaangler]

joanne_v But... Back yard breeding was going on far way back be for breeders even came on the scean......There was no problem with breeds way back then until now...I am sorry to say it all boils down to gain and money...If you have a top dog that has won crufts it will command big bucks its as simple as that....And the K.C promote it..(My opinion only)after last year the B.B.C pulled out of cruffs..all down to the program that was was on t.v about the in breeding going on....Also Theo's two top women judges that would not talk to the media after the show turn there backs and run like scared pussy cats....if they did not have some thing to hide!!!!!

[lindseyp]

Have thoroughly enjoyed taking part in this interesting & informative thread....I for one have learnt a lot but am pulling out now ......you seem to be getting frustrated mark & not sure what you mean by party line?? Can't answer your question I'm afraid & can't really add to what I've already said  but it's been a

[joanne_v]

I'm sorry but I do feel that I'm banging my head against a wall here. It seems I am just getting the party line. So every reputable KC reg breeder doesn't advertise?
Let me be honest I think there are a small percentage of altruistic people who wish to preserve the Cocker Spaniel for future generations but a larger percentage who have other reasons.  I still haven't heard anybody answer why someone classed as a reputable breeder can have litters whenever they want and sell 99% to the pet market and that's ok as it's somehow dressed up as improving the breed.

Every reputable KC breeder will for the most part not need to advertise. They are breeding to carry on improving/preserving their particular lines so will not breed large numbers, usually keep one or two pups from each litter and often sell to other breeders in their circles who want to add new blood. Any other pups do get sold to the pet market' as ultimately they are pets (the show types at least). They have little need to advertise and do not breed 'whenever they want' but breed when the timing is right and when the dam is the right age/condition and has been proven in the show ring. This may mean a couple of litters a year or one every 2 years.

There are plenty KC breeders who this is not true for so in my opinion I would not class them as reputable. For example the one I mentioned on your other thread who is IMO a commercial breeder.

[mark1]

Joanne, thanks, that answers some of my questions and I'd agree with your definition of reputable.

[joanne_v]

joanne_v But... Back yard breeding was going on far way back be for breeders even came on the scean......There was no problem with breeds way back then until now...I am sorry to say it all boils down to gain and money...If you have a top dog that has won crufts it will command big bucks its as simple as that....And the K.C promote it..(My opinion only)after last year the B.B.C pulled out of cruffs..all down to the program that was was on t.v about the in breeding going on....Also Theo's two top women judges that would not talk to the media after the show turn there backs and run like scared pussy cats....if they did not have some thing to hide!!!!!

Totally agree (although dont know why you've directed this at me). Its only the last 30 years or so that pedigree breeding has become such a huge business/hobby/lifestyle. 50-100 years ago dogs were mainly bred for a purpose (out of the show ring) so things were very much different and there were not the huge health problems as seen nowadays. It'll take a long time for the KC to change its recommendations on breeding policies such as limiting inbreeding and limiting use of each sire. By then it will probably be too late to save some breeds and once again humans will have interfered with nature.

[seaangler]

joanne_v But... Back yard breeding was going on far way back be for breeders even came on the scean......There was no problem with breeds way back then until now...I am sorry to say it all boils down to gain and money...If you have a top dog that has won crufts it will command big bucks its as simple as that....And the K.C promote it..(My opinion only)after last year the B.B.C pulled out of cruffs..all down to the program that was was on t.v about the in breeding going on....Also Theo's two top women judges that would not talk to the media after the show turn there backs and run like scared pussy cats....if they did not have some thing to hide!!!!!

Totally agree (although dont know why you've directed this at me). Its only the last 30 years or so that pedigree breeding has become such a huge business/hobby/lifestyle. 50-100 years ago dogs were mainly bred for a purpose (out of the show ring) so things were very much different and there were not the huge health problems as seen nowadays. It'll take a long time for the KC to change its recommendations on breeding policies such as limiting inbreeding and limiting use of each sire. By then it will probably be too late to save some breeds and once again humans will have interfered with nature.

Thank you for your unstanding post...
Just merly saying as to back yard breeding was going on way back...Chris

[Jane S]

I'm sorry but I do feel that I'm banging my head against a wall here. It seems I am just getting the party line. So every reputable KC reg breeder doesn't advertise?
Let me be honest I think there are a small percentage of altruistic people who wish to preserve the Cocker Spaniel for future generations but a larger percentage who have other reasons.  I still haven't heard anybody answer why someone classed as a reputable breeder can have litters whenever they want and sell 99% to the pet market and that's ok as it's somehow dressed up as improving the breed.

Mark, can I please ask you to moderate your tone a little - it's a bit rude to suggest that people who have taken the time to contribute to this thread are only giving "the party line" because their opinion is different to yours

Whilst I agree with you that only a relatively small percentage of breeders have altruistic reasons for breeding, it does not mean that a breeder is not reputable if most of their puppies go to pet homes. No show breeder expects all the puppies they breed to have equal show potential - they will aim to keep one or two themselves usually and it would then be normal for the remainder to go to hopefully carefully vetted pet homes or perhaps other show homes. I actually prefer puppies we do not keep ourselves to go to nice pet homes (many of my breeder friends feel the same) I do not like selling to other breeders unless I know them extremely well and all our puppies are endorsed accordingly (not that we breed very often, once a year at most and sometimes not even that often)

joanne_v But... Back yard breeding was going on far way back be for breeders even came on the scean......There was no problem with breeds way back then until now...I am sorry to say it all boils down to gain and money...If you have a top dog that has won crufts it will command big bucks its as simple as that....And the K.C promote it..(My opinion only)after last year the B.B.C pulled out of cruffs..all down to the program that was was on t.v about the in breeding going on....Also Theo's two top women judges that would not talk to the media after the show turn there backs and run like scared pussy cats....if they did not have some thing to hide!!!!!

Totally agree (although dont know why you've directed this at me). Its only the last 30 years or so that pedigree breeding has become such a huge business/hobby/lifestyle. 50-100 years ago dogs were mainly bred for a purpose (out of the show ring) so things were very much different and there were not the huge health problems as seen nowadays. It'll take a long time for the KC to change its recommendations on breeding policies such as limiting inbreeding and limiting use of each sire. By then it will probably be too late to save some breeds and once again humans will have interfered with nature.

Please can we keep this thread on topic and not turn this into a "bash the pedigree show breeder" thread since it is fairly easy to establish in Cockers at least that show breeders are not producing most of the puppies being bred today.

[Rats and Dogs]

If a breeder has to advertise to sell their pups, wether they show or not to me personally they are not a reputable breeder and no where did I say they were.

Out of curiosity, does listing breeders on the Cocker Spaniel Club website count as "advertising"?

[Crazy Cocker Gang]

If a breeder has to advertise to sell their pups, wether they show or not to me personally they are not a reputable breeder and no where did I say they were.

Out of curiosity, does listing breeders on the Cocker Spaniel Club website count as "advertising"?

again JMHO but I think there is a difference between advertising/linking your site as a breeder and advertising pups IYSWIM