Two 5 week old cocker pups put to sleep this morning

[LottieLu]

In my sisters last litter (not Cockers) she had a pup with no anus and only a partially formed intestine who had to be pts and another pup with a partially formed anus, she had him operated on and then homed him with a family member free of course, it would have been cheaper for her to have that pup put to sleep  but she was responsible and wanted to do the best she could for him, the Dam was spayed after the litter. She is not alone I know of a few breeders who have done similar things, unfortunately it does seem to be the 'old school' types that view their breeding stock and offspring in a different way   sorry if I am speaking out of turn and am not of course generalising but of all the breeders my sister spoke to about that litter the older breeders who had been breeding for 25yrs plus all said it would be better to 'cull' the pup it was only the younger generation who agreed with her in trying to save him

I'm definitely not advocating culling of pups but can certainly see what a difficult and often heartbreaking decision there is to be made by breeders sometimes. I'm no expert but sure it's just not always clear in the early weeks of life what degree of support and care some pups may need in the way of ongoing care and the degree to which that pup may suffer and still need to be PTS later on even if life continues in those early weeks. Therefore the decision which way to proceed in those cases must be unbelievably painful for responsible breeders.

[Jane S]

Jane the Deaf Dog Network on fb gave this breeder every chance to save these puppies, but she wouldn't allow it, they offered to have the puppies put into foster home, who have experience with deaf dogs until new homes could be found, she is having the rest of the litter tested what will become of them, anybody who thinks more of their affix than of a dogs life should not be allowed to breed anymore, I'm absolutely sicken and it is unacceptable behaviour from a breeder of 25 yrs I wonder if there is anything in the Cocker Spaniels Clubs code of ethics      

But we know nothing about this breeder apart from what's been said on the DDN page. It's clear from that page that the person who tried to offer help does not intend to identify the breeder ie "name and shame" so there is no way of knowing if this breeder is even a member of the Cocker Spaniel Club (only a first name and mobile phone number is known anyway) The Cocker Club has no jurisdiction over non-members and even if she was a member, someone would have to be prepared to put all the details in writing to the Club and those details would need to be verified. Can't see that happening really in view of the limited information in the public domain.

Obviously I don't agree with the breeder's actions but we're only getting one side of the story. Perhaps this breeder's vet also has old-fashioned views about deaf dogs - all the blame is being hurled at the breeder but these pups could not have been PTS without the involvement of a veterinary professional.

[Helen]

In my sisters last litter (not Cockers) she had a pup with no anus and only a partially formed intestine who had to be pts and another pup with a partially formed anus, she had him operated on and then homed him with a family member free of course, it would have been cheaper for her to have that pup put to sleep  but she was responsible and wanted to do the best she could for him, the Dam was spayed after the litter. She is not alone I know of a few breeders who have done similar things, unfortunately it does seem to be the 'old school' types that view their breeding stock and offspring in a different way   sorry if I am speaking out of turn and am not of course generalising but of all the breeders my sister spoke to about that litter the older breeders who had been breeding for 25yrs plus all said it would be better to 'cull' the pup it was only the younger generation who agreed with her in trying to save him

I'm definitely not advocating culling of pups but can certainly see what a difficult and often heartbreaking decision there is to be made by breeders sometimes. I'm no expert but sure it's just not always clear in the early weeks of life what degree of support and care some pups may need in the way of ongoing care and the degree to which that pup may suffer and still need to be PTS later on even if life continues in those early weeks. Therefore the decision which way to proceed in those cases must be unbelievably painful for responsible breeders.

Yes, well said Lottielu

Jane the Deaf Dog Network on fb gave this breeder every chance to save these puppies, but she wouldn't allow it, they offered to have the puppies put into foster home, who have experience with deaf dogs until new homes could be found, she is having the rest of the litter tested what will become of them, anybody who thinks more of their affix than of a dogs life should not be allowed to breed anymore, I'm absolutely sicken and it is unacceptable behaviour from a breeder of 25 yrs I wonder if there is anything in the Cocker Spaniels Clubs code of ethics       

But we know nothing about this breeder apart from what's been said on the DDN page. It's clear from that page that the person who tried to offer help does not intend to identify the breeder ie "name and shame" so there is no way of knowing if this breeder is even a member of the Cocker Spaniel Club (only a first name and mobile phone number is known anyway) The Cocker Club has no jurisdiction over non-members and even if she was a member, someone would have to be prepared to put all the details in writing to the Club and those details would need to be verified. Can't see that happening really in view of the limited information in the public domain.

Obviously I don't agree with the breeder's actions but we're only getting one side of the story. Perhaps this breeder's vet also has old-fashioned views about deaf dogs - all the blame is being hurled at the breeder but these pups could not have been PTS without the involvement of a veterinary professional.

Completely agree - we don't have all the facts here so shouldn't be jumping to conclusions 

[c19unn]

The breeder that i bought Diesel from had a puppy that had a bad jaw allignment - is teeth would later cause problems as there was potential for the teeth to grow into the roof of his mouth. She told us this before introducing us to the pups and also advised that due to this the pup would be sold for 200.00 instead of the 600.00 that the perfect health ones were going for. I advised her not to tell me what one it was as i believe that a puppy picks its owner - as i said to her - if he is the one that chooses me i shall love it just as much as a healthly one - It was Diesel that came pounding up to me and was wanting kisses and hugs and belly rubs the rest took some time coming over - So i said to the breeder that this was the one i wanted and she advised that he was a healthy one but procedded to show me the one with the jaw that was not alligned properly - she advised that he was cheaper. I told her that if he had been the one id have took him and i felt for the lil thing but Diesel Bonded with us the moment i walked in and i had to have him. I Did think that it was good that she was still trying to give him a good home and that she was honest about his issues.
TBH if Diesel was Blind or Death and had been the one then i would still have loved him. It makes no difference to me. I dont breed puppies so i dont knowe what all the issues are that affect breeders but its good to know that there are breeders out there that are willing to give 'not perfect' puppies a chance

[Joyce]

Jane sorry but your missing the point the breeder DID have a choice through Deaf Dog Network, and it was she who went to the vets not the other way around, maybe we will never know who this breeder is but it's a wake up call to anybody else who might think of doing this, don't think very much of the vet that did this he should be reported. 

[Ninasmum]

Imo no one had the right to 'play god' with these puppies life's. 
Its purely & simply so wrong. 

[LottieLu]

Jane sorry but your missing the point the breeder DID have a choice through Deaf Dog Network, and it was she who went to the vets not the other way around, maybe we will never know who this breeder is but it's a wake up call to anybody else who might think of doing this, don't think very much of the vet that did this he should be reported. 

Joyce, with the greatest respect we do not have all the facts. You are just not in a position to make judgements in this situation. At the very least, you were not present when/if the breeder you mention had any conversation with a vet or vets. Neither have you personally spoken to the breeder or the vet, have you? Sad as this situation may seem it may also not be as it seems.

[Ninasmum]

Jane sorry but your missing the point the breeder DID have a choice through Deaf Dog Network, and it was she who went to the vets not the other way around, maybe we will never know who this breeder is but it's a wake up call to anybody else who might think of doing this, don't think very much of the vet that did this he should be reported. 

Joyce, with the greatest respect we do not have all the facts. You are just not in a position to make judgements in this situation. At the very least, you were not present when/if the breeder you mention had any conversation with a vet or vets. Neither have you personally spoken to the breeder or the vet, have you? Sad as this situation may seem it may also not be as it seems.

I really don't think its a case of making judgements    its more the case of a powerful, gut wrenching, disgusted reaction at the thought that anyone could do this     

[lindseyp]

Imo *no one had the right to 'play god' with these puppies life's. 
Its purely & simply so wrong. 

I totally agree with what you're saying Wendy & 'IF' these pups were just got rid of for reputations sake, then of course it's so very wrong but we don't know the whole facts - we are only speculating & discussing 3rd hand information 
* In some ways Wendy when me, you or anyone else chooses to breed their dogs, we are to some extent, playing god - for most part we only get to see the cuddly, chunky little cute puppies at the end of it - but there is another side to nature that people never see & despite be able to test for certain problems at the moment there are a whole load that can't be tested for & is a lottery as to whether litters will be affected.
It is horrible to think of any animal being PTS because a human decides it isn't healthy enough but sometimes (& of course it's not always the case!!) the breeder & vet are right & do have the animals best interest at heart. Isn't this really why animals have such large litters - in the wild some would die at whelp, some would fade along the way,  some would get eaten by predators - are we not playing god by interveining where sometimes nature wouldn't?
No offence to you at all hun    - you know I would feel just as passionately as you, if this did happen to these little babies  but at the moment we don't know the whole truth - there may of been something else that we aren't aware of 

If there wasn't & we all find out that it was true .............then we can kick ass      

[LottieLu]

Imo no one had the right to 'play god' with these puppies life's. 
Its purely & simply so wrong. 

I know exactly what you mean and do understand. However, some would say that we do exactly this at any point in the life of our pet if we make that heartbreaking decision together with our vet to PTS a beloved but very, very sick pet as opposed to wait for the inevitable despite the pain they may be in at the time. It's heartbreaking but it's our intention at the time which is the key point.

[Jane S]

Jane sorry but your missing the point the breeder DID have a choice through Deaf Dog Network, and it was she who went to the vets not the other way around, maybe we will never know who this breeder is but it's a wake up call to anybody else who might think of doing this, don't think very much of the vet that did this he should be reported.  

What point am I missing I didn't say the vet approached her - just pointed out there was a vet involved here who must have agreed to the breeder's request. I've already said I don't agree with the breeder's actions and that we would not do the same as she did but that doesn't mean I'm going to villify someone I don't know when she has not been able to give her side of the story (and NO that does not mean I'm "sympathising" with the breeder)

I'm bowing out of this now as it seems only one point of view is viewed as acceptable on this thread

[Joyce]

If you really want to know the FACTS get in touch with

Karen at The Deaf Dog Network

Karen actually spoke to this breeder.

[Helen]

If you really want to know the FACTS get in touch with

Karen at The Deaf Dog Network

Karen actually spoke to this breeder.

...and to the breeders vets?  

I know this is an emotive subject and none of us want otherwise healthy pups PTS,  but despite the phonecall between the Deaf Dog Network and the breeder we really don't have all the facts or what happened with the breeder and her vets  

(And for general forum manners, please don't type words in capitals as it's the internet equivalent of shouting and comes across as rude   )

[Ninasmum]

If you really want to know the FACTS get in touch with

Karen at The Deaf Dog Network

Karen actually spoke to this breeder.

Thanks Joyce....just mailed her  
On a personal level i am interested to know more, mainly because if it does transpire to be exactly as we have read from the OP then i would never wish to inadvertently buy a puppy from this breeder or ever recommend someone else to.  

[Helen]

If you really want to know the FACTS get in touch with

Karen at The Deaf Dog Network

Karen actually spoke to this breeder.

Thanks Joyce....just mailed her  
On a personal level i am interested to know more, mainly because if it does transpire to be exactly as we have read from the OP then i would never wish to inadvertently buy a puppy from this breeder or ever recommend someone else to.  

If that information was given to you by the Deaf Dog Network then they would very likely be in breach of the Data Protection Act....

and FWIW contrary to comments made by some COL members on FB, we're not taking sides, we're trying to see both sides and unless we have the breeders side of the story we will never know the entire story.