Considering breeding - Tests!

[Pip895]

We are considering breeding from Saffi later this year - there are a lot of ifs, buts and maybees, including finding a Stud dog that I like, and has had all the required tests.  Before we consider any further I am going to first get Saffi tested.

I have never done this before, so I am a little unsure about how to go about it .  I have sent of for, and received the test kit from Antagene.  I presumably also have to get Saffi examined under the BVA/KC/IDS Eye Scheme – as my vet didn't seem too sure of the procedure and would presumably just refer me on, can I just contact the eye specialist directly – my closest clinic seems to be in West Byfleet.  

Do you get an instant result from the Eye Scheme tests?  Perhaps they would also do the swab for the genetic test and sign the papers for Antagene  as well. There wouldn't be much point in going for the DNA tests if she didn't get an all clear on the other tests, as we wouldn't be breading from her.

Regarding the Genetic test – is there any point at all in getting the FN test for a working type cocker?  
If all the eye tests are clear, should I then look into hip scoring – I am concerned about this one – I think it might be a bit OTT as we would only want the one litter.  We are considering breeding mainly because we want to keep a pup, a friend would also like one, and I would like the experience – I think I am going into it with my eyes open!

[LynneB]

I think I am going into it with my eyes open!....

I don't think so...read all the threads on breeding, wanting to keep a puppy is not a good enough reason. What about all the others?

[Cayley]

When you get the BVA eye test done make sure you ask for Glaucoma to be done as it's a separate test.

I would get her FN tested because it's not certain whether working types can get it.

If you are breeding workers as pets then you may find it hard to find suitable owners as the market is slow at the moment. I wouldn't do it for the experience as it can be absolutely horrific  .

[Helen]

I think I am going into it with my eyes open!....

I don't think so...read all the threads on breeding, wanting to keep a puppy is not a good enough reason. What about all the others?

have to agree with Lyn - there are plenty of nice 'pet' working cockers out there already and in this financial climate I don't think its right to breed to get a pup.  I wouldn't breed from a dog unless they are proven in the field or at least have reached a high level in agility or flyball.

However, you've probably already decided to go ahead and whatever we say won't sway that.

You've not mentioned hip scoring.

If you haven't already bought it, buy 'the Book of the Bitch' and check out what can go wrong with whelping.

[Pip895]

I think I am going into it with my eyes open!....

I don't think so...read all the threads on breeding, wanting to keep a puppy is not a good enough reason. What about all the others?

I said it was not the only reason - and I have read all the threads - including the harrowing ones.
+ I am still at the considering phase!!

I know the experiance can be horrific - but it can be wonderfull too.  Beeing sure I can find good homes for my pups, even if I were to get a big litter, is definatly on my list of requirements!

[Pudding]

Have you thought about the cost....what if you need to have a cesarean it can
cost up to £2,000.00 do you work??? as you will need to be at home with the pups
have you checked that you are aloud to breed from your Dog as a lot of breeders have this as part of
there conditions of sale.. and most good Stud dog will only have proven dogs eg in Agility or field trials
and at the very worst you could lose Saffi

[Cayley]

I know a lady recently lost her DDB and was left hand rearing 10 puppies.

[Pip895]

have to agree with Lyn - there are plenty of nice 'pet' working cockers out there already and in this financial climate I don't think its right to breed to get a pup.  I wouldn't breed from a dog unless they are proven in the field or at least have reached a high level in agility or flyball.

However, you've probably already decided to go ahead and whatever we say won't sway that.

Your not going to persuade me that (most) working cockers arnt the best of pets for an active home, if thats what you meen   

You've not mentioned hip scoring.

Yes I did!

If you haven't already bought it, buy 'the Book of the Bitch' and check out what can go wrong with whelping.

Done that - havent quite read it from cover to cover yet!

[Jane S]

I won't go into the whys you shouldn't have a litter and will just answer your questions as best I can (but do take note of what Cayley says about sales being slow - it is not easy to find the right homes at the moment and many breeders are having to keep puppies long after they are 8 weeks old so space for potentially a big litter of active pups for perhaps more than 12 weeks is vital!)

1 Hip Scoring
You know from reading posts on COL that HD exists in working lines so how would you feel if unknown to you your Saffi has bad hips and you breed from her and produce pups with HD (you cannot tell how good a dog's hips are by how active they are as young dogs - muscle tone can compensate for poor hips). You could say "well hardly any working breeders hip score so why should I" but the question is do you want to do the best for any pups you produce or not?

2 Eye testing by a BVA/KC panellist does not need a referral from your vet - you just need to ring up and make an appointment with your nearest panellist and yes, the results are given to you immediately after the test. Take your KC certificate and microchip cert with you or they won't issue a test certificate.

3 Some BVA/KC panellists are au fait with the DNA testing side of things but some are not so don't rely on their help. This is something you either organise totally yourself or you can sometimes take part in a 20/20 Clinic (where someone does all the paperwork and sending off of the samples on a group basis and you just have to get your samples to them before the stated deadline). Optigen has a list of clinic dates on their site (there is an English one scheduled for Feb 7th): http://www.optigen.com/opt11_calendar.taf

If you are on Facebook, this is an excellent group for finding out clinic dates, health testing days etc: http://www.facebook.com/groups/170959846274011/

[lindseyp]

Hi Pip
Having already done what you plan to do with Saffi, I can't ever say I regret it, as we have Livie & Tinker  but would I do it again .....I would have to say No, never 
It sounds as if you have already made your decision & I respect & in no way judge you for it 

My advice would be to get any & all test available to working cockers, find a reputable working cocker breeder to help guide you & advise should you need it & look long & hard at the stud dog you choose for Saffi.
 

have you checked that you are aloud to breed from your Dog as a lot of breeders have this as part of
there conditions of sale.. and most good Stud dog will only have proven dogs eg in Agility or field trials
and at the very worst you could lose Saffi

....this wouldn't be top priority for me but feel health & temperament far more important    but have to agree with Wendy in ref to Saffi having endorsements on her pedigree - best to sort this out with her breeder if she does  I would also highly advise a stud dog that has mated before & for you to possibly meet some of his offspring.
I read Book of the Bitch from cover to cover & back again & thought we had every possibility covered & anticipated for .......... we never knew about, nor heard of Micropthalmia until it was diagnosed in Tinker & a litter brother. We were lucky Pip - normally it affects the whole litter & we would of had potentially 9 blind pups on our hands - The specialist (Mr Ian Mason) had PTS a litter of boxers born with it not long before he saw Tinker.
 There are so many things that can't be covered in the book or from experience because they're still to happen & just because you've done every health test available & helped Saffi through what seems like the perfect pregnancy, doesn't mean it will still go all to plan.
Purdeys mating was so romantic - her pregnancy text book, as was the whelp - all pups survived & it was an awesome experience & we all felt privileged & blessed but when the pups eyes opened at 2 weeks it became apparent that not all had gone so well.   
I wish you well Pip & if |I can be of any help please PM me (not that I know much  ) but do your homework, prepare for the unexpected & also be prepared for the very hard work of finding good homes for the pups, having to keep them if you can't & also the responsibility of any of them coming back due to circumstances changes in their new homes .... the pups will always be your responsibility.
All the best
Lindsey x

[Toni-UK]

Jane and Lindsey

[Pip895]

Jane and Lindsey

Ditto  - I will try and give considered replies when I next have a mo.

[Helen]

I've thought about this a lot as I get constantly asked to use Jarvis as a sire (and no I haven't) - and I have to think about what makes him more exceptional than any other working cocker out there.

And the answer to this is.....nothing.

He has a lovely temperament, he's a good looking dog, he's very well mannered, he's a good worker, he's very biddable and has good conformation - but NONE of these traits are exclusive to him.  I could go out and source a pup from similar lines or other lines that I admire that will have all these traits from a good breeder. 

As for active pet homes - then you better vet your sire very carefully as from what I've seen and read on here Saffi does not have an exceptionally high working drive and most good studs out there do - you may find your pet homes won't be able to handle high-drive dogs   

What lines are you looking at?  And what exceptional traits does Saffi have that other working cockers don't?

[vixen]

we would only want the one litter.  We are considering breeding mainly because we want to keep a pup, a friend would also like one, and I would like the experience  

I had thoughts like yours when my girls were younger.  I adore my girlies and the idea of a continuation of them was very appealing.  If I could have guaranteed each girl would have one puppy each, I 'may' have gone ahead.  However, this would be very unlikely.  I felt it was wrong to bring more puppies into the world when EVERY day healthy dogs are put to sleep for lack of homes.  
I also didn't feel I had the right to breed just for the 'experience'.
I decided to have my girls spayed and if ever I want a puppy with similar breeding to them, I will return to the breeder as he did a very good job in producing my girls.  

[Pip895]

Hi Lindsay

Thank you for a very thoughtful post – the situation you faced is indeed a cautionary one – Having met Tinker I know what a lovely brave girl she is – but I also know it hasn't been easy either for her or you.

Please believe me I have given quite a bit of thought to that nightmare situation – a litter of disabled pups – my head says that I should be prepared to have them put down – after all, even if I did manage to find homes for them, the homes they would be taking could well be at the expense of a rescue dog.  My pups might end up causing dogs in rescue to be put down which is not something I would conscience.   If it came to it, would I be able to go though with it though – I honestly don't know!!??
 
I hope you understand me when I say that I pray that I never have to find out if I could give that instruction.
 
Many thanks for your offer of support – If I decide to go ahead – and it is still if - then I may well take you up on your offer.
Philippa