Considering breeding - Tests!

[Pip895]

Hi Jane
[Re having room] I am in the lucky situation of having a very large house and garden so I don’t think space would be too much of an issue although OH and the cat might be unimpressed!

Re Hip scoring – I do understand – but It is a bit gruelling when even heavily used stud dogs don’t have it done, to put Saffi through a GA just for 1 potential litter.  I am also aware that even if you hip score and mate two dogs with good scores you can still have problems?  So for now, I'm not sure on this one. In any case we wouldn't do this until all other hurdles have been cleared. 

I will be contacting Saffis Dads owner who also bread Saffi's mum, to try and find out if there is anything I should be on the lookout for. There are no endorsements on Saffis pedigree.

Philippa

Thanks for the info on the eye testing.

[Ninasmum]

I'm not going to persuade you either way Phillipa but there are some more scenario's to consider 
How would you feel if you lost Saffi in whelp?
How would you feel if the puppies died at birth?
How would you feel if you lost some of the puppies after several days/weeks?
Can you be at home with them for at least 8/9 weeks & be with Saffi for at least 10 days before whelping?
What would happen if a new owner decided they didn't want their puppy after having them for several weeks/months?
What would happen if one of the owners came back to you after say 2 years for rehoming their dog?
How do you know you could 100% trust the stud dog/owner?....some people will tell you what you want to hear but omit some facts e.g temperament/behaviour problems can skip a generation, whilst the stud dog may seem of sound temperament, his sire/dam may not be. There can also be other hereditatry health issues that are carried back in the stud dogs/dam line's that you don't know about.
Do you have a large bank balance?    seriously though you do need at least £2k just in case.

There are a couple of the above that have happened to us...firstly we sadly lost a 5 day old puppy.    This may not seem a huge issue to some people but after spending 5 sleepless nights trying to keep her alive & losing that battle it is totally heartbreaking.    Because i'm such a huge softy losing her affected me greatly & this is one reason i would never breed again.  The second reason is because i put my trust into the stud dog owner but subsequently found out that the grandsire has similar behaviour issues to Nina (the puppy we kept).     We love Nina more than life itself BUT every day i thank god she stayed with us because i dread to think what would have happened to her in an inexperienced household.  Its not easy having a dog that is nervous, fearful & lacking in confidence. 
None of the above crossed my mind before breeding & hindsight is a wonderful thing. 

[Jane S]

Re Hip scoring – I do understand – but It is a bit gruelling when even heavily used stud dogs don’t have it done, to put Saffi through a GA just for 1 potential litter.  I am also aware that even if you hip score and mate two dogs with good scores you can still have problems?  So for now, I'm not sure on this one. In any case we wouldn't do this until all other hurdles have been cleared. 

But you don't have to put Saffi through a GA as some vets will use sedation (and bear in mind that you'll be putting Saffi through a potentially far more serious ordeal by breeding from her so this needs to be put in perspective).

It is a lot to think about I know and one other thing to consider which I don't know if anyone else has mentioned (apologies if they have) is that whelping and rearing a litter is very hard on you physically and mentally; it is exhausting when things go well, let alone when they don't (if you do it properly as of course you'd want to do).

[LynneB]

With Bonnie's last litter, she developed a uterine infection when the pups were just a day old, her temperature was so high that her milk flow was affected. I then spent the next 36 hours syringe feeding 6 puppies every 2 hours, day and night. We lost 1 puppy a day later and I was devastated. She had X-rays to make sure that she had not retained a pup, she had ABs, calcium etc and 3 visits to the vet.
This is her last litter (second)as I would not put her through that again.
It is physically and emotionally draining even when things go right. I lose an average of 1/2 stone every time we have puppies and I am an experienced breeder.

[ebony girl]

i think everyone has made very informative posts and responses, but i do generally feel that if all the potential problems have been address and considered VERY carefully then as long as EVERY possible health test available to your particular breed of dog has been carried out then breeding is obviously a possibilty.

However, i would like to stress that i do agree with breeding for the purpose of bettering the breed, and would like to see only dogs bred who have proven themselves worthy of passing on their genes....ie; show champion, proven worker, great agility or flyball dog etc etc...

And i think if you can tick a YES in the box next to all of these then breeding would be ok for some, after all every breeder had to start somewhere. 

[Pip895]

I think everyone who  breeds, should believe they are bettering the breed – of course everyone has a slightly different idea of what that means.    
For Nicola I think it means a dog with the potential to make FTCH, for me it is to be a good family pet.  However we may not be as diametrically opposed as that might appear – families are very variable – a working cocker family should be an active one – they may hunt, do agility or fly-ball or they may just want an active dog and enjoy walking and cycling in areas suitable for exercising a dog off lead.
 
A working cocker should be able to work - they should have the attributes that the breed is known for – energy, enthusiasm, intelligence,  good retrieve, quiet in the field etc.  I also think they should conform broadly to the breed standard in size and shape.  Above all, of course,  they should have a great temperament and be healthy.   If I didn’t believe Saffi was all of this I wouldn’t be proposing breeding from her.
   
I think in any case in deciding to breed, the bar should be set a lot higher for a Dog than a Bitch – a dog can sire dozens of litters – a breeding bitch should have only between 1 and 4.  If we say its an average of 3 with 6 surviving pups per litter and half girls then you can see to maintain the breed more than 1 in 10 bitches should be bread.  Can I prove that Saffi is exceptional (in the top 10%) of the breed – I suppose not - although I believe she is of course .  What I can be fairly confident of is that I am in the very lucky position of being able to cope with the potential expense and to devote the time necessary to breed.
 
I really do think I am going into it with my eyes open!  It still may not happen of course – there are lots of hurdles to cover – the steepest may well be finding a suitable stud dog - I intend to be pickey – so few are health checked – I must say it has improved, but still the majority even among well used ftch dogs are un tested.

[Jane S]

If we say its an average of 3 with 6 surviving pups per litter and half girls then you can see to maintain the breed more than 1 in 10 bitches should be bread.

I don't mean to be argumentative but are you really saying that 1 in 10 Cocker bitches should be bred from maintain the breed I don't understand this as the Cocker Spaniel is a numerically popular breed (the second highest in terms of KC registrations and that doesn't include all the hundreds of non registered puppies) with thousands of puppies being born each year - there is absolutely no need for 1 in 10 bitches born to be bred from to maintain the breed (many would argue too many are already being bred from for the number of suitable homes anyway)

I also don't think it's possible for anyone to say their dog is exceptional without any evidential proof of this - we all think our dogs are wonderful but there needs to be some objective analysis of this. We have only ever bred from those of our dogs we have considered have proven themselves to be of sufficient merit to be bred from - there have been quite a few over the years we have loved as wonderful pets but did not breed from because of this (male and female).

One of these days perhaps we will move more towards the system other countries have where a breed warden has to pass a dog or bitch suitable for breeding beforehand - in many ways, it makes much more sense than our current "free for all" system.

[Pip895]

No please don't misunderstand me - I do not want to see an increase in breeding.  It was just a simple mathematical exercise to show that in any one generation you would need far more breeding bitches than stud dogs to maintain (at the same numerical number) the breed - very simplified I know.

I know as a dotting cocker owner I am probably not the most unbiased person to make a judgment but personally I think success in the show ring is also a rather poor selector of dogs or for that matter in working lines FTCH trials as the key criteria for both types of dog should be temperament & health neither of which are adequately tested in those environments.  In the end apart from health testing and the obvious exclusion of dogs with behavioral problems it is going to come down to a mater of opinion. 

[LynneB]

No please don't misunderstand me - I do not want to see an increase in breeding.  It was just a simple mathematical exercise to show that in any one generation you would need far more breeding bitches than stud dogs to maintain (at the same numerical number) the breed - very simplified I know.

I know as a dotting cocker owner I am probably not the most unbiased person to make a judgment but personally I think success in the show ring is also a rather poor selector of dogs or for that matter in working lines FTCH trials as the key criteria for both types of dog should be temperament & health neither of which are adequately tested in those environments.  In the end apart from health testing and the obvious exclusion of dogs with behavioral problems it is going to come down to a mater of opinion. 

As an exhibitor who works hard to get the best from my dogs and breeder, again to improve, I feel you opinions quite insulting. Of course health and temperament  are paramount but so is the correct breed standard and the dogs fitness for purpose. A show dog with an unsound temperament will not get anywhere in the ring. Maybe you should check you facts before making sweeping statements. My dogs are fully DNA tested, eye tests included., and all clear.

[ebony girl]

No please don't misunderstand me - I do not want to see an increase in breeding.  It was just a simple mathematical exercise to show that in any one generation you would need far more breeding bitches than stud dogs to maintain (at the same numerical number) the breed - very simplified I know.

I know as a dotting cocker owner I am probably not the most unbiased person to make a judgment but personally I think success in the show ring is also a rather poor selector of dogs or for that matter in working lines FTCH trials as the key criteria for both types of dog should be temperament & health neither of which are adequately tested in those environments.  In the end apart from health testing and the obvious exclusion of dogs with behavioral problems it is going to come down to a mater of opinion.  

when i mentioned dogs which have proven themselves (show, field trials etc) this wasnt just about looks, there are reasons behind certain characteristics being desired.....for eg. ears of a certain length is supposed to aid with scent, every breed standard is for a reason, and im sure a Worker owner will come along and point out the reasons behind characteristics and working abilties in their strain too.

If you read my original post it is very much in favour of you breeding for the right reasons with the right tests, and trust me i regard temperament in a family pet the most important part of owning a dog, but please dont disregard what a particular breed of dog was originally bred for and the characteristics which make this possible....afterall, its what makes a cocker a cocker, and its why we love them..

[ebony girl]

oooops lynneb....we appear to have posted at the same time, but fortunately we seem to be singing from the same songsheet......i couldnt agree with you more xx

[vixen]

Personally, I feel that only working cockers who actually 'work' should be bred from.
Yes, working cockers 'can' make wonderful pets in the right home (I have two) but my girls were bred from strong actual working/trailing lines.  I feel this breeding has given them the biddability that is so great. Their breeder has spent a life time working his dogs and breeding for this trait.
I feel that if 'pet' working cockers are bred to other 'pet' working cockers then the very essence of the breed is being diluted.
I have seen a lot of 'pet' bred working cockers who have all the drive of their breed but have none of the biddability.  

[Jane S]

I know as a dotting cocker owner I am probably not the most unbiased person to make a judgment but personally I think success in the show ring is also a rather poor selector of dogs or for that matter in working lines FTCH trials as the key criteria for both types of dog should be temperament & health neither of which are adequately tested in those environments.

Not sure what to say to that misconception except to repeat as Lynne has done that a shy, nervous show dog will get nowhere in the ring & an aggressive one would be impossible to show too. Also show breeders (in Cockers anyway) have been the ones leading the movement for health testing (and were responsible for raising the funds necessary to develop the DNA tests) Very few show breeders these days don't do at least some health testing and many do more than they're required to do. Certainly for me and most other show breeders I know well, health and temperament are very much their priorities - their dogs are their pets as well after all. I imagine the same goes for FT breeders as well, certainly as far as temperament goes - a shy, nervy working Cocker is hardly likely to make the grade in the field!

Incidentally, if you're interested in Cocker health issues, perhaps you might like to attend this free Seminar: http://www.cockerspaniel-info.org.uk/diary.htm (places are limited though). Show breeders (and some non-show breeders too) like to attend seminars like this to keep up to date with current knowledge.

[Pip895]

As an exhibitor who works hard to get the best from my dogs and breeder, again to improve, I feel you opinions quite insulting. Of course health and temperament  are paramount but so is the correct breed standard and the dogs fitness for purpose. A show dog with an unsound temperament will not get anywhere in the ring. Maybe you should check you facts before making sweeping statements. My dogs are fully DNA tested, eye tests included., and all clear.

Please don't be insulted  - my comment was not meant as an insult to show breeders.  I agree great strives have been made to improve - particularly with regards to health testing - and I know many show breeders do care deeply that their pups should make wonderful pets, and breed as much for temperament as show potential.  It is just that the show ring does not select on the basis of how good a pet the dog will be, but on confirmation to a standard.  Just because a dog is a show champ it does not necessarily mean that it will be a good pet.  Its the process not the people I was commenting on.

[saffysmum]

I was going to keep my tuppence to myself as I can see why people are on the soapboxes but I can also see where you are coming from too.  Who wouldn't want a little piece of their very special dog to carry-on? And a fab nature is always welcome at my fireside.
But....I think you've lost me when you won't put your dog under a GA for HS?? So what happens when/if something goes wrong and she needs an emergency section in the middle of the night.  Why is that OK?
If you ain't going to health test, don't put the genes out there and leave it for others to clean up!!  Anyone breeding should need to have every test available without choice but then that's a KC debate and not for here.


I have had a stuck puppy in the middle of the night resulting in a section and we then lost the entire litter.  Have you any idea what it feels like to bury those tiny little bodies that never even took a breath.  Perfect in every way.  Mum was devastated as were we all.
I have also made the wrong owner choice for one of my pups resulting in a year old out-of-control dog coming to live with me again and upseting all the pack.  He needed completely socialised and trained before another family could take him.

If you do decide to breed your bitch to have another little one just the same, be warned.  Regardless of how you breed and rear that pup, it'll never be it's mum! I know because I have that T-shirt.  I bred to try and replicate what I had but to no avail.
Best of luck