CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: kb on April 18, 2007, 04:38:23 PM
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A few weeks agp Penel had suggested to me to get Honey out and about in places where there are more people. So with the kids safely back at school, I thought I would take her for a quick walk along the main street of our town - it's not much of a main street. I decided to go at lunchtime, as it would not be too busy.
I loaded my pockets with treats and off we went - she was a bit skittish, but not too bad. A few people looked as if they were going to stroke her and I just said don't stroke her,she's very nervous and walked on. So when we walked past people and she stayed calm, I gave her a treat - within a few steps the rascal was then looking up at me for a treat every time we passed someone ::) Should I be using the treats like this?
She sat and waited to cross the road - and at that stage a guy came up. She looked at him and he said hello and she approached him, sniffed, waggedher tai and so on and he tried to stroke her. She moved back with her fornt legs in a bow posistion and barked just once. I told him she was nervous and he laughed and went on. i thought it was good though that she did approach him - although I probably let him stroke her to soon - but it wasn't the frenzied type of bark she normally gives.
I stopped at an estate agents window and told her to sit which she did - she gave me (or should I say the treats in my pocket) her full attention while I looked - I did thisd on purpose to see what she would do.
By the end she was walking past everyone (looking for her treat as she did so) and attempting to get into every shop as she did so.
But do you think this will eventually ease her anxiety?
I took her to school then to pick up Charl - usually while are in the car waiting she goes mad at everyone walking past. She did seem more chilled. I had no treats left, but everytime someone walked past and she stayed calm, i praised her "Good Girl" and eventually she wasn't even looking when people walked past.
Are these the right things to be doing? I didn't take her to the school on lead - she stayed in car, as its only over the street, within view.
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You are doing exactely the right thing! Well done!
Only one little thing... the guy she approached... I would have quickly given him a treat to give to her. That would have reinforced her confident behaviour even more.
But again, well done. And keep doing what you are doing and your dog will soon associate people with nice things and nothing to be frightened of.
Vera
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- within a few steps the rascal was then looking up at me for a treat every time we passed someone ::) Should I be using the treats like this?
Yes ;) She's associating people with treats ie nice things :D
In fact I'm envious as I've been working with Billy for three months now giving him treats each time he sees another dog & he still hasn't got to the stage when as soon as he sees a dog he looks at me ::) So I think it's great progress ! :D
When billy gets to the stage where he looks at ME when he sees a dog I'll then be introducing the clicker :D If we ever get there :lol:
Although I do agree that socialising is an ongoing lifetime task there maybe certain aspects of Honey that will never change & you may just have to accept that she is what she is. How old is Honey? I hope you see the improvements you're looking for, & when you've finished can you let me know as I'll be sending Billy over to you :005: ;)
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You are doing exactely the right thing! Well done!
Only one little thing... the guy she approached... I would have quickly given him a treat to give to her. That would have reinforced her confident behaviour even more.
Ditto!
As she's so quickly gotten used to passing people, maybe get some friends to help out by coming to say hello to her - laden with something yummy! ;)
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Honey will be 2 next month - I have to say she is a very fast learner, and always has been. But it's keeping it up, once she has learnt something.
She was clicker trained as a pup, to sit, saty , down etc and even if you don't do these routinely, as soon as you get the clicker our and give the command - off she goes.
Someitmes it is ahrd to get her attention in public places, but she was really focused and sharp yesterday.
I think however there are certain things that we will not change - she is a real grumbler and growls very easily - but I don't know that will ever be able to eliminate this completely and may have to settle for managing it.
Between her, the kids and my growly cat (only growls at the dog) - I'm thinking of bringing in the United Nations :shades: :005:
I don't know either how motivated she would be in the absence of food.
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Yay well done. Don't try it without food for a long time, no point setting her up to fail. She's a bright girl, isn't she :005: you'll have to keep doing this, and take her to different places, so she doesn't just get used to the one area. Once they learn that they go to strange places and nothing bad happens, they usually do chill out pretty quickly.
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- within a few steps the rascal was then looking up at me for a treat every time we passed someone ::) Should I be using the treats like this?
Yes ;) She's associating people with treats ie nice things :D
In fact I'm envious as I've been working with Billy for three months now giving him treats each time he sees another dog & he still hasn't got to the stage when as soon as he sees a dog he looks at me ::) So I think it's great progress ! :D
When billy gets to the stage where he looks at ME when he sees a dog I'll then be introducing the clicker :D If we ever get there :lol:
Although I do agree that socialising is an ongoing lifetime task there maybe certain aspects of Honey that will never change & you may just have to accept that she is what she is. How old is Honey? I hope you see the improvements you're looking for, & when you've finished can you let me know as I'll be sending Billy over to you :005: ;)
Jan, why don't you see if you can get hold of a stuffed toy dog to work on with Billy.
I use my stuffie Labrador Reg on many a case of dog aggressive dogs as a first step.
Have you taught a look back with the clicker if no other dogs are present?
Also I find a get behind me cue quite helpful.
With regards to Honey KB, I would be doing all the feeding at the moment rather than trusting other people to do it.
The idea being she goes and says hello and then comes back to you for the reward. You do not want to create a problem by her mugging other people for food in the street.
Keep your treats in a distinctive bag that you use every time you meet a stranger and always feed her yummy treats from the bag and make a big deal of it.
You can then start to throw the bag to the stranger and get them to throw the bag back to you and you open up the bag and feed the dog.
It looks to all tense and purpose that the stranger is throwing you the sacred treat bag and the association is formed without risking them flooding Honey with unwanted human affectionate behaviours.
I just don't trust the general public when feeding a nervous dog as it is too easy for them to go OTT and set you back.
Mark
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Yeah I agree Mark, general public mean well, but will probably lean right over her or something ::)
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That' s a great idea Mark, Thanks
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How odes she make the association between people and food though - I mean I could be giving her the treat for anything. How does she know it's for walking past people - and how do they figure it out so quickly?
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Cos your timing's good, every time she walks past a person, you give her food. Dogs aren't stupid y'know ;) Only have to get rewarded to doing something ONCE and they learn. Hence why a dog that has stolen food off a counter, will always try again, cos they got a really good reward one time.
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Jan, why don't you see if you can get hold of a stuffed toy dog to work on with Billy.
I use my stuffie Labrador Reg on many a case of dog aggressive dogs as a first step.
How would that work Mark :D Billy isn't toy motivated but is VERY food motivated.
Have you taught a look back with the clicker if no other dogs are present?
No :huh:
Also I find a get behind me cue quite helpful.
We are currently learning "hide". :D
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With regards to Honey KB, I would be doing all the feeding at the moment rather than trusting other people to do it.
The idea being she goes and says hello and then comes back to you for the reward. You do not want to create a problem by her mugging other people for food in the street.
I am so glad you said that Mark. :D People are always advising to give strangers treats to give to your dog; but my trainer is adamant that you should never do this.
I was beginning to wonder if I was the only person on the planet being given this advice. :-\ But now you've said it, I'll stop worrying. :005:
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Are you still seeing Marie Rhona?
What advice does your trainer give?
Mark
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Are you still seeing Marie Rhona?
What advice does your trainer give?
Mark
Yes I'm still seeing Marie. She agrees with you and says you should not let other people give your dogs treats. You need your dog to be comfortable enough to say hello to people, but to always look back to you for the reward. Then this offers them an escape route for if they are worried - it gives them an established pattern of behaviour so they know what to do if they are worried by any situation, rather than panic. It also prevents them from running off to every stranger in the park in search of food. :005:
She says this for visitors to your house too. Teach the dog to say hello (or even just to look at and then ignore the person) and then treat the dog yourself. Don't give the visitors treats to give to the dog.
Marie also advises you to have a recognisable treat bag so the dog knows it only ever gets treats from there so there is no point in looking for them elsewhere. Then if absolutely neccesary a stranger can treat from your treat bag, but not from their own.
It is just that usually on COL people will offer the advice of getting strangers to treat your dog so they become less nervous of people. And I've often wondered if everyone thought this way. :-\
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I'm definitely with Marie on this one.
She is indeed a wise lady and you are lucky to have her as your trainer.
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Took Honey down to school today- she was so good while we waited in car, I took her to school gates. I waited for the girls just inside as outside gets a but busy. before I could say anything, this girl (who knows about dogs) came over withe her buggywith school bags on, 5 yr old and all. She did something different to most people though - she got down to Honeys level and stroked her :shades:............and Honey was great :luv: ;). The little boy who was standing beside and not in front of her then stroked her and I have to say my heart was in my mouth - not a word ;).
I treated het (Honey - not the lady). However the lady stood up, spoke to me and she barked a little - as soon as she was calm for a few seconds I treated her again. We stood for a while watching the world go by - but we ran out of treats. She woofed once or twice (not sure she wasn't looking for something to eat) but when she was quiet I praised her verbally.
She had on her stretchy bungee pupee lead - I have to say this is great in this situation, because when she pulls to get to someone the lead genty recoils without any pulling and returns her quite naturally beside me.
All in all she did very well - she looked as if she was enjoyimg all the hussle and and new things to see. She was alert and focused and switched on - now.....she is fast asleep ;) :D
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Now I would have said I always tried to use positive training - but I obviously have not been using it enough or for the things I want to change.
I think I have not been very imaginative in my use of it.
Take this fro example - Honey is nightmare to groom. She turns into a vicious, teeth-baring, nose wrinkling beast. MY hands end up covered in bruises from nips, so much so that I had resorted in wearing gardening gloves. We did use treats when grooming her - but more of distractor instead of a reenforcer (although they probably were reenforcing the nasty behaviour).
LAst night her ears really needed groomed,so I thought I would taclkle this. I armed myself with my combs that I use to comb her ears and a pocket full of treats. I actually decided to do this very casually with her on my knee on the sofa.
I gently combed her (not her ears At first) - ofcourse she was having none of it. After just one stroke and before she could react, I popped her a treat - gradually I moved to her ears. She wasn't happy, but before she could snap each time I gave her a treat. Then I was able to lengthen the time between treats - giving her one just before I could see her getting prockly again. By the end of it she was sitting quite happily, with occasional treats - and no snapping. It took a long time and a lot of treats, but it was great.
As soon as we had finished we followed up iwth a game with MR Stripes ,then she went and stole some chocolate orange :: - which was not part of the plan, but was really the fault of the child who left it within paws reach >:(
I feel really confident now that I can change things and i feel much closer to Honey as well.
i think she is a really bright little cookie - and I have been selling her short ;)
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Topics merged.
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Aw Kb sounds like you and Honey are making great progress. I can post Charlie down to you when Honey is perfect so you don't get bored :005:
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Aw Kb sounds like you and Honey are making great progress. I can post Charlie down to you when Honey is perfect so you don't get bored :005:
I'll be posting Billy too :lol: :lol:
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This could just be Honey lulling me into a false sense of security - I think they do that you know ;)
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This could just be Honey lulling me into a false sense of security - I think they do that you know ;)
oooooohhhh yes I know :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Keep it up, sounds like your doing great :D
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This post has given me inspiration to sort Jakey's on-lead behaviour out. He's improved in so many ways and is now a fantastic dog that doesn't have tantrums too often now, however, his on-lead behaviour is awful.
I need to socialise him with pockets full of treats ;)
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its great to hear that things are going well , keep up the good work :shades: