Recall getting worse - is it me or him?

[Pearly]

Pearly - do you ever let Coral off the lead? Have you ever?

I'm not planning to work or show Henry or do trials. But I do want a dog I can trust off lead.

All of which is slightly off the point of my first question which was: is a sudden deterioration in his off-lead behaviour linked to me starting long line training and having him on and off the lead more often?

As I've already written it really depends on your dog and how much prey drive/chase instinct he has plus you and how firm/consistent you are!

Coral was off lead with excellent recall up to 8.5 months old.  She then discovered what the scent was associated to and also hit that "teenage" phase where she decided she didn't need me anymore! I have photos and video footage of her from 5 months of age performing pretty amazing retrieves and coming back every time on the whistle, but......

Dogs are born with working noses - it's how they locate Mum and milk to feed.  Their eyesight develops next taking some time eg at 7 months old they are only just beginning to see "depth".  Hearing develops later from 10 months onwards so while I had done a LOT of sit, stop, recall to the whistle as she got older I'm sure that sound changed, to her, plus the need to hunt overtook everything!

Has she been off lead? Yes from her first walk out at age 13 weeks (she's a rescue and had jabs later) to 8.5 months old, even then I tried a few times as I thought we'd cracked it but no......after watching her run free for 45 minutes on Christmas morning - in my dressing gown in the drizzle - across a 7 acre friend, bouncing off the hedges on both sides it was a decision not to let her off lead or long line again, until I know for certain the stop/recall is embedded.

Long line is not an extending / retracting lead, it's a long strip of canvas that allows your dog some freedom but also means you can reel them back in if needed and grab the end if they run off at high speed! Turner Richards sell good quality long lines.

Why have I gone to such lengths for such a long time? Coral is from trails lines and has a very high prey drive, it came as a complete shock to me the first time she ran off - having picked up a dummy to bring back to me, it was spat out and she stood like a meerkat tasting the air then went at high speed across a main road and two fields to put up about 50 pheasants - thing is, she'd never encountered a pheasant before and hasn't been up close to a living one since.

Coral is a chaser.

I have no choice if I want to be a responsible dog owner and have a well behaved dog I can trust, I have to put the time and effort in to do justice to this little girl. 

Following feedback from training yesterday where the Trainer declared her to be a nice little dog and I'm not too much of a novice (!) we've been told to move up to the advanced class - there is no way Coral is steady on flush yet but by the end of summer training I can envisage that I will have a far more reliable dog who not only comes back when called but also stops when told.  She won't be ready this season but then we have next summer to refine and enter working tests if we are both up to standard.  I have no desire to enter trials.

It's worth the time and effort.  I think I've spent the best part of 50 hours working on heel work alone! Yesterday she walked beautifully to heel, off lead and sat on the whistle.

Pearl - show type - only discovered she could chase in January this year....she and I have been working on the stop whistle since and her bottom now hits the ground so fast she sometimes slips on wet ground    she will be 5 on Sunday - it's never too late to train, just sometimes you have to use different incentives!

[Londongirl]

Pearly - Thanks for the detailed reply, that's fascinating! Henry is a show cocker, no working lines at all so we may not encounter quite such a strong prey drive. But it's good to be prepared. It's also interesting about their hearing. Henry sometimes seems to have trouble locating the direction of my voice if he's a little way off.

I am using a Turner Richards long line already. 

[bizzylizzy]

Thanks from me too Jayne - very interesting!

[Londongirl]

I remember feeling really guilty when we had to use the lead more often but it's sometimes a necessity if you want the end results. As for why his behaviour has changed, I'd say it's just the Cocker cleverness; he has cottoned on to the fact that he now has to go back on his lead and (let's face it) he isn't going to like it as much as total freedom  There is also the possibility that this might have happened at this age anyway, without trying the long line as he could be starting to test the boundaries now he's an adolescent. It could be a coincidence?

In the end a totally reliable recall will be worth it as you will never have the heart stopping moment when he ignores your recall. I'd stick with it as it will be worth it.

Thanks for this - I AM feeling guilty. And perhaps perversely, it feels like having him on the long line is exactly the opposite of what we've been trying to achieve with the recall training. I feel much better now!

[Pearly]

Pearly - Thanks for the detailed reply, that's fascinating! Henry is a show cocker, no working lines at all so we may not encounter quite such a strong prey drive. But it's good to be prepared. It's also interesting about their hearing. Henry sometimes seems to have trouble locating the direction of my voice if he's a little way off.

I am using a Turner Richards long line already.

I'm really impressed with the quality of their long lines - I'm assuming you know how to use it? I didn't - it took a Trainer to show me 

[Londongirl]

Pearly - Thanks for the detailed reply, that's fascinating! Henry is a show cocker, no working lines at all so we may not encounter quite such a strong prey drive. But it's good to be prepared. It's also interesting about their hearing. Henry sometimes seems to have trouble locating the direction of my voice if he's a little way off.

I am using a Turner Richards long line already.

I'm really impressed with the quality of their long lines - I'm assuming you know how to use it? I didn't - it took a Trainer to show me 

I'm not sure I do!

[Pearly]

Although I could try my best to describe how to use the long line, there is no sustitute to attending a Trainer either in a group class or 1-2-1 session.  While I think, from your posts, that the challenges you have are similar to those I've been working through with Coral - they may not be, I'd also urge caution that what works for one dog may not for another!

For Coral the highest reward is a retrieve, for Pearl it's a fuss or a treat!

The Kennecl Club have a list of accredited trainers in your area (assuming you are UK based)

Jayne

[Archie bean]

Coral running free across a "7 acre friend" Pearly??! 

[Pearly]

Coral running free across a "7 acre friend" Pearly??! 

Oops! 

[Barry H]

TBH I don't think you're doing anything wrong - apart from not having a little more patience!  Patience, patience is key.  I see by your signature that Henry is just 7 months, still a young pupster with lots of growing up to do.  The changes in the coming months as he matures a little may make the world of difference. 

I'm very fortunate in that there are safe fields/woods (council owned) within a 15 minute walk where I can let Jack off for the duration of our outing and have done so since he was three months.  I've found that his 'wandering off' has been much improved since he turned a year old and even better now that he's sixteen months.  Yes, there have been a few OMG moments, but I rarely need a recall signal any more, as he's usually (though not always) within visual range and now prefers to stay relatively close.   I worked a lot on calling his name rather than blowing a whistle and often change direction while encouraging him to follow (like heel walking but without a lead or long line).  He soon got bored with having a succession of long treks in the opposite direction!  This interspersed with 'hide and seek' games where I'd 'disappear' behind a tree ocassionally and wait for him to find me.  All activities are reward based (lumps of cheese and cocktail sausages!) I think the initial slight panic when he realises I'm 'not there' helped/helps a lot too.  Please note that all this was/is based on the confidence that (a) the area is safe and (b) improved response to calling his name and (c) his increasing unwillingness to be 'lost' for any length of time together with (d) his understanding of what 'another long slog back' means! 

Whilst not a perfect recall scenario, I mention all the above in addition to the excellent earlier advice and merely as food for thought as something that worked for me/Jack.  I'm also working my way through Total Recall, but have found it's become a bit redundant on our daily local walks mainly due to Jack's improvement (though I appreciate that he would still be unreliable in unfamiliar places, so am going to persevere).

Would be interesting to hear of Henry's progess, so best of luck and please keep us updated!

[Londongirl]

Hi Barry. Here's the interesting thing - I did all the stuff you suggest here, hiding, rewarding check-ins, walking briskly the other way. And started the whistle training up to the point where I was still reinforcing it as he galloped back to me and using it as a cue on.h in very controlled situations. He was off lead for most of our walks, stayed close, checked in often, came back often with just a call of 'Henry, come!'  Walks have been relaxing and enjoyable.

The only issue I had was that he would (and still does) disappear off if he sees a dog in the distance he wants to play with, and will not respond to any recall. So I decided it was time to get the last part of the recall sorted and started training with the long line, whistle and high value treats, recalling him back from dogs he was showing an interest in. Plus putting him on and off the lead on the regular part of our walks. And that's when I lost all the nice trotting close, checking in and coming when called when off leash. 

[Barry H]

Yes, I know what you mean.  TBH I don't think there's anything you can do in the short term, other than keep on doing what you're doing.  Cockers, especially youngsters, can't get enough of anything that moves.  Selective deafness goes hand in hand with OMG, got to check it out, it might be interesting and fun!  See ya!

Henry is still very young, and just now finding his feet and discovering his independence.  His recall will improve as he gets older and wiser.  It's a balancing act it seems to me.  Much depends I think on how much 'freedom' you're prepared to give him versus how much you want to train a good recall.  Personally, my priority was for Jack to meet other dogs on his own terms - as many as possible when he was younger - so didn't worry about his supersonic departures.  This wouldn't have happened so much with him straining on the end of a long line.   During the past year, there's been only one incident with an over-exuberant GSD, but even this I put down to a learning experience for him.  Can't have a wuss Cocker!  By far the majority of the unknown dogs we've met or meet on our regular walks are friendly and well-socialised with many becoming old chums.  Nevertheless, every new encounter is a different learning experience for him, which has got to be a good thing.  Nowadays with a new dog he's a bit more laid back and tends to check them out from a distance then meet them halfway as it were, but he's still the friendly, exuberant chap he's always been. 

If you can trust him to be out of sight for a bit and are prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt and tramp after him, I'd not worry over much.  Go at Henry's pace and the recall will happen in the fullness of time.  Otherwise the long line is the answer.

Hope all this rambling makes sense - and good luck!

[Londongirl]

Thanks for that, Barry. What you describe is exactly how I've been doing things with Henry. He's very much a London dog - lots of parks, lots of dogs to meet and greet. He's free to dander around and I trust him not to disappear. We went to look at some boarding kennels recently and they said the London dogs were the happiest there as they thought nothing of becoming immediate best friends with a pack of dogs they'd never met before.

The only thing that worries me is the 'supersonic departures' - what a perfect description! Not because I am worried about Henry - he always turns back if the other dogs move off too far, and is submissive when he gets to the other dogs. But I can see it bothers some owners, and their dogs, to have a bouncing Cocker barrelling towards them full pelt, with me debating whether to hold my ground until he comes back or tramp after him.

[Murphys Law]

But I can see it bothers some owners, and their dogs, to have a bouncing Cocker barrelling towards them full pelt, with me debating whether to hold my ground until he comes back or tramp after him.

I think that is the key point. Somebody might be out with a reactive dog and there's nothing worse than an off lead dog appearing out of the blue if that's the case. Please don't think I'm having a go. Murphy used to run up to every dog on the field when he was a pup and got a few good tellings off.

[Londongirl]

But I can see it bothers some owners, and their dogs, to have a bouncing Cocker barrelling towards them full pelt, with me debating whether to hold my ground until he comes back or tramp after him.

I think that is the key point. Somebody might be out with a reactive dog and there's nothing worse than an off lead dog appearing out of the blue if that's the case. Please don't think I'm having a go. Murphy used to run up to every dog on the field when he was a pup and got a few good tellings off.

That's it exactly - I don't want to cause unnecessary stress to other owners, or their dogs. I think I will just carry on as I am now - putting him on the long leash and practicing recall in the areas I know he is mostly likely to go running off, and allowing him off and reinforcing the nice behaviours we've already established when he's more focused on me.