Author Topic: Vegas's trip to the behaviourist  (Read 10661 times)

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Offline Cathy

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Re: Vegas's trip to the behaviourist
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2006, 08:05:13 AM »
What difference would it make to ignore the all the dogs from what had always done up until she was told to take the new actions?  Wouldn't that still cause Vagas to be confused.

What do you mean by ignoring all the dogs, surely,  you have to give one of the dogs its dinner first, and you have to let one off the lead first? why shouldn't this contribute to natural progress amongst them all? They can still find there own way?

Why does doing these little things differ from .. not allowing your dog to sleep on your bed, or best to eat your own dinner before give your dog its dinner, and for some - NILIF?

I know I am not trained. So do not suppose to know, but I would really like that expalined.
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Offline Pammy

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Re: Vegas's trip to the behaviourist
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2006, 08:38:10 AM »
At the end of the day they are not wild dogs, they do not, never have and never will live in the wild. Food and exercise is provided for them and they have nothing to do with that they don't have to try to balance perhaps lean times over times of plenty and cater for puppies so pack dynamics are a red herring in the wild sense of the word.

You know your boys Gill and need to be able to live in harmony regardless of another joining the crew. Iput from others is of course always welcome but can as in this case serve to confuse.

Hope you manage to get some semblance of order in there for them. Don't forget how much they pick up from you though. I agree with ignoring them it can help - but is not the panacea. ;)
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Offline Magic Star

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Re: Vegas's trip to the behaviourist
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2006, 09:09:18 AM »
Oh Gill - there's different thoughts coming from all over the place here. :huh:

Only you know your dogs and you will do whatever you believe is right.

Good luck!

I second that :D

Go with what you think Gill, trust your own judgement :shades:


Offline shonajoy

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Re: Vegas's trip to the behaviourist
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2006, 09:20:56 AM »
Gill, we rfr a lot of people to this lady, and they have had great succss. She coms very highly recommended and would talk to you on the phone to see if she thought anything else would be useful.

I did my training classes with hr and loved her methods, she's a real character and a dog person.http://www.livewithyourdog.co.uk/
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Offline Michele

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Re: Vegas's trip to the behaviourist
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2006, 10:18:06 AM »
What I would do is ignore the lot of 'em - withdraw your attention so that they have to sort themselves out.  Sounds harsh maybe but that is what I personally would do.....

Not always an easy thing to do, and surely depends on the severity of the problem. If I had taken that route when I had troubles between Georgia, Neneh and then Otis, I would have had at least one dead dog on my hands.  :-\

but is not the panacea. ;)

I've learnt a new word today :003:

Offline jann

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Re: Vegas's trip to the behaviourist
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2006, 10:28:38 AM »
Oh Gill - there's different thoughts coming from all over the place here. :huh:

Only you know your dogs and you will do whatever you believe is right.

Good luck!

I second that :D

Go with what you think Gill, trust your own judgement :shades:
  ph34r I didn't mean to add to your confusion Gill, and sorry if I unintentionally did! I agree that you must trust your own judgement as you know your dogs better than anybody. I was just saying that I would err on the side of caution before making my decision on how to treat the problem, weighing up all the pros and cons, which is what I understood you were asking for when you posted this thread Good luck whatever you decide to do Jann ;)

Offline *Jay*

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Re: Vegas's trip to the behaviourist
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2006, 10:32:08 AM »
Thanks for that link Shona - I'll look into that further ;)

I've tried ignoring him and letting them sort things out amongst themselves over the past 2 years but things have just gotten progressively worse.  We had a problem last night on our evening walk which showed just how anxious he has become so I think I'm going to hold off on things until I get his eyes checked next week.
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Re: Vegas's trip to the behaviourist
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2006, 10:40:04 AM »
Yes of course you can't ignore fighting dogs - that isn't what I meant.
I meant withdrawing your attention - no cuddles, no eye contact, no one sleeping on the bed etc - I know how hard it is - I've tried it too .  Tis really hard to advise people what to do - I'm no expert - I was just giving my opinion - I don't think you can increase rank by letting one particular dog off lead first.  I do feed Tilly first - she is our pack leader - then I feed the others randomly - but I still don't think it increases her rank - *she* is the only one that can do that by her behaviour.
Good luck at the vets - I hope his eyes are ok Gill. 

Offline Cob-Web

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Re: Vegas's trip to the behaviourist
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2006, 12:59:32 PM »
I don't think you can increase rank by letting one particular dog off lead first.  I do feed Tilly first - she is our pack leader - then I feed the others randomly - but I still don't think it increases her rank - *she* is the only one that can do that by her behaviour.


I agree - it takes more than letting off lead first to determine rank; but I do think that it is an important part of what Gill has been advised - if Dallas is to take over the dominant position in the pack then he needs to know that he has Gill's support to do this  ;)  I see it less an issue of how the other dogs view him, and more how Dallas sees himself  ;)

I have read freqeuntly the importance of not undermining the heirachy that co-habiting dogs have established (not intervening when the top-dog disciplines another, for instance) so I think it is equally possible to put interventions in place to give a dog confidence to take over from a dog which is unhappy or unable to fill that role  :-\

Although they are not "wild" dogs - when domestic dogs co-habit they have to  develop some form of social "rules" amongst themselves to ensure that they live harmoniously; don't they??  :huh:
I suppose my thinking is that because dogs are individuals, and because they are genetically programmed in certain ways, then it is inevitable  that some co-habiting domestic dogs which develop relationships similar to those between wild pack animals  :-\
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Offline Top Barks

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Re: Vegas's trip to the behaviourist
« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2006, 09:40:26 PM »
Personally I believe that dog / dog interactions go much deeper and are much more complex than we still understand.
We miss so much body language and inter dog communication that it is difficult to know what is going on within the dynamics of a domestic pack.
These dynamics can be subject to change.
I would suggest that by all means put on a specific dogs lead first and have a specific routine and order that you do things all I am saying is that I am not sure how this human concept of dominance heierachy will affect what actually goes on between our dogs.
 Your dogs will come to accept this routine I have doubts it will change the dynamics of your pack .we seem to be looking at this issue with a human vision of dominance.
What makes a dominant dog?
An alpha dog does not need to go through a door or eat first everytime because he knows if he wants to he can.


A popular perspective on the social behavior of dogs in multiple-dog households sees the dogs' behavior as reflecting the sociobiological laws of the rigidly structured dominance hierarchy.
 Like wolves, domestic dogs are social animals (and hence should not be socially isolated) and they have an hierarchical social system. However, the hierarchy is neither created by, nor necessarily maintained by physical domination, nor is it strictly linear. If anything, the hierarchy is created and enforced by psychological control, and the peace of the pack is maintained by active appeasement rituals of lower ranking individuals. In fact, the famous Cambridge and Berkeley zoologist, Dr. Thelma Rowell has suggested that the status quo of social groups is better termed a subordinance hierarchy - a much more precise and descriptive term.

Yes, most groups of male dogs generally have a surprisingly stable linear hierarchy, but females tend to show significant day-to-day variation and male-female interactions can be extremely unpredictable, with rank-reversals being the norm rather than the exception. Indeed, bitches have virtually rewritten canine hierarchical law with the First Bitch Amendment which states, I have it and you don't. Moreover, individual members of a domestic dog pack have special friendships, alliances and bodyguards. And truly confident top dogs are more than willing to share and even allow underdogs and buddies prime access to bones and favored sleeping places. To say one alpha male rules the roost is an oversimplification to the point of ridicule. In fact, in most domestic canine social groups it is not a single male, but rather a group of females which decide what's what.


Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
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Offline Cob-Web

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Re: Vegas's trip to the behaviourist
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2006, 09:45:43 PM »
Indeed, bitches have virtually rewritten canine hierarchical law with the First Bitch Amendment which states, I have it and you don't.

 :005: - great description; I saw this in action yesterday evening when Snoopy and Molo were seriously trounced by a gorgeous springer bitch over a tennis ball  ;)

I am sure Gill will find a balance that suits her household - and as others have said, I expect when Jersey joins the family, she will soon let the boys know who's in charge  ;)
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Offline Top Barks

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Re: Vegas's trip to the behaviourist
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2006, 09:55:30 PM »
I have just looked at the trainers website and she indeed seems suitably qualified to advise on these matters.
Everybody has their own ways and views which are constantly developing and really it is very difficult to advise on pack specifics without seeing the dogs interact.
I know who is top dog in my household and it ain't one of the dogs.
I am a provider and not a dominator, I feed my dogs together and at the same time and I have no specific orders for putting them out or bringing them in and this does not in my pack at least seem to affect the structure of the pack.
In fact what I see is a structure that fluctuates just like described above which is strange cause I have three boys although they have all had the chop and I wonder if even this can affect the pecking order
Best of Luck Gill

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
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Offline PennyB

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Re: Vegas's trip to the behaviourist
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2006, 10:24:04 PM »
However, the hierarchy is neither created by, nor necessarily maintained by physical domination, nor is it strictly linear. If anything, the hierarchy is created and enforced by psychological control, and the peace of the pack is maintained by active appeasement rituals of lower ranking individuals. In fact, the famous Cambridge and Berkeley zoologist, Dr. Thelma Rowell has suggested that the status quo of social groups is better termed a subordinance hierarchy - a much more precise and descriptive term.

I see this a lot when other bitches come into my house (either friends dog or fosters), and interestingly its very noticable how Ruby actively carries out appeasement rituals (more so than if she meets same dogs outside on park). Its weird as immediately its as if they all know here they stand.
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Re: Vegas's trip to the behaviourist
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2006, 12:04:44 AM »
In fact, in most domestic canine social groups it is not a single male, but rather a group of females which decide what's what.



substitute the word canine for "family" or "human" and hey yup you got it Mark  :lol:

Offline *Jay*

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Re: Vegas's trip to the behaviourist
« Reply #44 on: August 30, 2006, 06:33:53 PM »
Well, we were at the vets tonight and he does have some vision problems with PRA being a possibility. His retinas are narrowed but because we have nothing to compare them to, the vet think it will be a good idea to monitor him for about 3 months and then re-examine with a view to referring him to one of the vet schools for further investigation. It certainly explains a lot of his behaviour but I can't believe I'm unlucky enough to have two dogs affected with sight problems :-\
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Playing at the Bridge: Brook (13/06/04), Jackson (23/12/05) & Vegas (14/07/10)