Neutering - Our Dilemma

[Miss Poohs]

Hate to say this but my Ruffy is very much a working Cocker, an excuse for a piccie me thinks 

[Joules]

He is gorgeous 

But he will be even more gorgeous without those troublesome boys bits 

[Helen]

I'm interested in this, but I'm wondering if I should expect the same sort of aggressive behaviour in a dog from working stock rather than the show type? The breeder recommends that the dog should be kept entire, and I'm fairly sure that most dogs in any hunting environment don't display that aggression to one another. Maybe that's because they've got hunting on their minds, or maybe they're just under much tighter control than most dogs on a walk in the park?

makes no difference ardvolich, whether working or show.

It is an established view, rightly or wrongly, that working cockers 'may' lose their working drive if castrated - i am not happy in my mind that this is the case, and i know neutered workers who are fantastic on shoots (aren't they freya ).  should my entire boy become like ruffy, then we would seriously consider the vet visit.

i truly think it depends on the individual dog, and that this is something inherent in them and not trained into them....we have some 'moments' with our entire worker (16 months) but on the whole he will get on with any male entire/neutered provided the other dog is 'polite' to him (jarv appears to be a stickler for manners and doesn't like bullies....)

[PennyB]

jarv appears to be a stickler for manners and doesn't like bullies....

Mine are like this --- Wilf met up with our 'pain in the bum' collie neighbour who has no manners whatsoever and he just winds him up usually, but yesterday Toby was as good as gold and Wilf thought he was wonderful

[sarahp]

(jarv appears to be a stickler for manners and doesn't like bullies....)

or gobby blue roans 

[Penel]

Also remember that most working dogs are kennelled, not house dogs. House dogs "get away" with loads more just because.  A kennelled dog only gets attention when the handler lets them out of the kennel, so they are bound to be more attentive for starters.  Also they live with lots of other dogs, even if kennelled singly or as a pair, so they are probably socialised miles more than a house dog.  I am not saying that Ruffy isn't socialised, but that the socialising is different with a kennelled working dog.  And yes I think working dogs are under much tighter control than non working dogs (whether they are working strain or not) - because handlers of working dogs are much stricter.  Those of us that keep our dogs in houses are way too soft on them !!!!

[Helen]

Also remember that most working dogs are kennelled, not house dogs. House dogs "get away" with loads more just because.  A kennelled dog only gets attention when the handler lets them out of the kennel, so they are bound to be more attentive for starters.  Also they live with lots of other dogs, even if kennelled singly or as a pair, so they are probably socialised miles more than a house dog.  I am not saying that Ruffy isn't socialised, but that the socialising is different with a kennelled working dog.  And yes I think working dogs are under much tighter control than non working dogs (whether they are working strain or not) - because handlers of working dogs are much stricter.  Those of us that keep our dogs in houses are way too soft on them !!!!

ooh penel how can you say we're softer?

'ang on, gotta adjust the mohair blanket that on the sofa that jarv is curled up on, just to make sure he's completely comfy....

(jarv appears to be a stickler for manners and doesn't like bullies....)

or gobby blue roans 

he's fine with dais and dill, he just told dill off....and dais, quite frankly, just can't be ar@ed with jarv!

[cazza]

Also remember that most working dogs are kennelled, not house dogs. House dogs "get away" with loads more just because.  A kennelled dog only gets attention when the handler lets them out of the kennel, so they are bound to be more attentive for starters.  Also they live with lots of other dogs, even if kennelled singly or as a pair, so they are probably socialised miles more than a house dog.  I am not saying that Ruffy isn't socialised, but that the socialising is different with a kennelled working dog.  And yes I think working dogs are under much tighter control than non working dogs (whether they are working strain or not) - because handlers of working dogs are much stricter.  Those of us that keep our dogs in houses are way too soft on them !!!!

ooh penel how can you say we're softer?

'ang on, gotta adjust the mohair blanket that on the sofa that jarv is curled up on, just to make sure he's completely comfy....

 

I'm not soft on my two either, they are in the kennel and never ever come in the house

'Fern I'm getting a dead leg can you not lie by my feet instead of on them while I type?'    (computer must have moved outside to the kennel )

[Miss Poohs]

Spoiled  - never!!!!! 

These two work hard for living - being so cute and lovable is hard going you know!! 

[*jean*]

Also remember that most working dogs are kennelled, not house dogs. House dogs "get away" with loads more just because.  A kennelled dog only gets attention when the handler lets them out of the kennel, so they are bound to be more attentive for starters.  Also they live with lots of other dogs, even if kennelled singly or as a pair, so they are probably socialised miles more than a house dog.  I am not saying that Ruffy isn't socialised, but that the socialising is different with a kennelled working dog.  And yes I think working dogs are under much tighter control than non working dogs (whether they are working strain or not) - because handlers of working dogs are much stricter.  Those of us that keep our dogs in houses are way too soft on them !!!!

do you know I had this talk yesterday with a working cocker man ( hes also a trial judge) who has kennel dogs and house dogs, he trials both.
 he says and I quote.. "when I put on my shooting gear the dogs go into work mode, they know whats coming next, The kids , the wife they are forgotton." now its his wife who feeds and excersises the dogs and the kids play with them. he has about 20 plus cockers all working or being trained. they are his livelihood he cant afford to ruin his dogs by spoiling them but he says the best way to train a pup is give it to his kids and between them and their pals visiting the dog becomes socialised and fearless. his wife and kids do the basic training and when the pups are mature enough he takes them on and brings them on. but he is fairly young and has modern ideas on dog training, not all working dogs are brought up so happily. I must ask him what his views on neutering are.
 
 

[Miss Poohs]

Ohhhh Jean please do - I'd be interested to hear his point of view.

The couple that bred Vahri and Ruffy said that as the only choccie button in the litter Ruffy was the apple of their nieces and nephews eyes, and got lots of attention because of it.

To this day I maintain that's why he loves kids so much. a good day for Ruffy is getting to the school gate to Andrew and his pals at home time - Vahri on the other hand prefers a quiet life.

[Top Barks]

In my experience, neutering does not deter working cockers from what they do best.
my boys hunt and flush like mad.(both done)
In working mode they are like demons possessed.
It's a joy to watch.
Stunning piccie miss Poohs!

[CraftySam]

I posted earlier on this thread about Barney's castration. He seems to have had an amazingly quick turn around in his snapping at other dogs.

Yesterday I met up with Nicola and Alfie for a walk in the park, while she was down her on business. I was a little concerned on how Barney would be but he was great. He was off lead the entire time, met loads of dogs without any problem at all. I was soooo relieved as this was a big test really. The boys got so muddy we came back to mine to bath them and they both shared to toys without issue and at one point were chewing the same toy at the same time.  

Went to training last night, again no problem. Until after class we met my friend with her Wiemaraner, who is about 7 months old and entire. He had snapped quite a lot at Harvey for some reason. They'd done puppy class together and were fine and nothings happened between them. So when he met Harvey he snapped at him right away.   I had been so relieved at the change in him, so I was a bit upset.
I'm hoping that over the next couple of months it will stop altogether. Its only been just over 2 weeks and the change was pretty dramatic so hopefully in time all snapping will stop.

[Cob-Web]

I'm hoping that over the next couple of months it will stop altogether. Its only been just over 2 weeks and the change was pretty dramatic so hopefully in time all snapping will stop.

I've little experience of male-hormone aggression, so maybe Mark can help me out here - would there be a need for some behaviour modification training alongside the neutering for this behaviour to ensure this doesn't remain a problem?? 

[CraftySam]

I'm hoping that over the next couple of months it will stop altogether. Its only been just over 2 weeks and the change was pretty dramatic so hopefully in time all snapping will stop.

I've little experience of male-hormone aggression, so maybe Mark can help me out here - would there be a need for some behaviour modification training alongside the neutering for this behaviour to ensure this doesn't remain a problem?? 

I'd welcome Marks opinion on it. 

My trainer, Jen, has said that its not something to worry overly about, he's being a typical stroppy teenage boy. Unfortunately I am a worrier, I do trust Jen's opinion and why shouldn't I she's a degree in animal behaviour science, but as I said I am a worrier. 

I would definitely say there are some definite adolescent puppy things going on now, just minor things like ripping up newspaper when my backs turned, or jumping on the sofa when I've nipped out of the room. I think that goes with the territory, pale into insignificance compared to Sapphi's adolescence.
When he has snapped I have given him a stern no.
I've emailed Jen about yesterdays incident, to see if she can offer any further advice, but if Mark has any I'd be glad of it.