He's finally done it but..............

[*Jay*]

Okay after 11 months (and they were very trying months at times!!) Aspen has been asked to move up from beginners class to intermediate at training    TBH I think they just felt sorry for him - or me - but thats by the by.  The only issue that I have with this is that I can't teach him a down. At best, he will kind of half lie down and then spring back up again or roll around on his back. I've tried giving the command and treating when he lies down naturally, I've tried using a high value treat to try and lure him into a down, I've tried luring him into position under one of my legs so that he would have to lie down, but nothing seems to work. Does anyone have any other tips??

[lexi]

Sorry, I don't have any tips other than perseverance.

Byron was exactly the same, and even today he's really not keen on doing a down - our trainer said "it's just not his thing"!

[Nicola]

'Down' was not Alfie's favourite command to learn either, he didn't like it and would tend to lie down very briefly to get his treat then spring up again. I spent a lot of time trying to teach him to hold a down with not much success, he knew the command and what to do, he just didn't want to do it  

So what I did was put his lead on, asked him to sit and then lured him into a down using a piece of cheese moved along the floor in front of him and then once his elbows touched the floor I moved the cheese back in between his legs so he had to move his nose back to get it and he couldn't stand up at the same time, I kept holding the cheese so it took him longer to eat it. Just before he finished the cheese and would have been about to stand up again I asked him to wait (a command which he already knew) and I gently put my foot on the lead to stop him getting up. I only did this for a few seconds at first before releasing him with his known 'finish' command. I only had to hold him like this 2 or 3 times before he got the hang of it and would maintain the down until I released him. He did know what to do all along, he just needed a bit of reinforcement, typical 'try your luck' Alfie  

[Cob-Web]

Molo didn't learn down for two years  I had given up, tbh - but then we went to clicker classes and I was advised to allow him to free shape the down rather than lure him......which meant waiting for him to lie down at some random point during the day, and C/T'ing him at the point he assumed the position    It only took a couple of days before he was lying down every time he saw the clicker, then I could introduce a hand signal and finally verbal cue

It worked; not sure why, but it did  I think for Molo ,he didn't know that it was the lying down that was wanted, so the clicker really did mark the behaviour clearly 

[kb]

Some dogs never feel comfortable in a down position physically - especially if they have long legs.

Don't know if cockers would be considered as having long front legs - but it could be something like that

[*Jay*]

Oh that would be good - wonder if the vet could provide us with an exemption certificate so we wouldn't have to do it at all   

[jools]

I'm glad it's not just Poppy who's having trouble with down. Bramble got it the first day I tried it with her. Poppy does a lot of half hearted attempts....and then a few awoowoowoos......and then gets so close to my legs that she can't lie down.

The only thing I'm finding works with Poppy is to give the command once, hold the treat very still near the floor....and then not to repeat the command or move until she is down.

I used to repeat the command a good few times, something I am sure she found very amusing.

Good luck.

[kb]

Do oyu reward even an attempt at a down? Our puppy trainer, at the time, got us to reward even if they did something close to a down

[suzysu]

Well done Aspen  for moving up a group    No help on the down sorry...have never done it with mine 

[Nicola]

Do oyu reward even an attempt at a down? Our puppy trainer, at the time, got us to reward even if they did something close to a down

I definitely wouldn't do this because say you say 'down' and the dog does a half down or crouches or something and you reward them for that then they think they've done it right when they haven't. It's confusing for the dog and for you. I've seen similar things when people recall their dogs and start saying 'oh good boy/girl' when the dog is halfway back to them so the dog starts to tihnk that they only have to come halfway back and they then start to veer off at this stage and do their own thing instead of coming all the way back. In recall my two only get praised when they are sitting right at my feet or have 'stopped and dropped' to a whistle command as part of their gun training.

[Cob-Web]

Do oyu reward even an attempt at a down? Our puppy trainer, at the time, got us to reward even if they did something close to a down

I definitely wouldn't do this because say you say 'down' and the dog does a half down or crouches or something and you reward them for that then they think they've done it right when they haven't. It's confusing for the dog and for you.

In clicker training. we avoided adding a verbal cue (word) to the behaviour until it was reliable to a hand signal (which could be dropped later if desired) to prevent this happening 
To "shape" behaviour at first, we would click for the right movement even if it was a partial down or crouch, but only to mark the desired behaviour, so the dogs never associate the word with anything other than the shaped and complete action, iyswim 

[kb]

Yes Rachel - that is what I meant actually - Honey was trained to down with a treat drawing her into the position and clicker - then when she was getting there we introduced the command.

We clicked and rewarded for an attempt - Honey was still a small pup and managed it, but some of the bigger pups - dalmation, labradors, GS and some kind of cross with a bit of Newfoundland in, all found it very hard.

I have to say, once they were rewarded for intial movement, they went into down quite quickly.

Honey is really funny, because she almost does this little jump into a down.

[Nicola]

Do oyu reward even an attempt at a down? Our puppy trainer, at the time, got us to reward even if they did something close to a down

I definitely wouldn't do this because say you say 'down' and the dog does a half down or crouches or something and you reward them for that then they think they've done it right when they haven't. It's confusing for the dog and for you.

In clicker training. we avoided adding a verbal cue (word) to the behaviour until it was reliable to a hand signal (which could be dropped later if desired) to prevent this happening 
To "shape" behaviour at first, we would click for the right movement even if it was a partial down or crouch, but only to mark the desired behaviour, so the dogs never associate the word with anything other than the shaped and complete action, iyswim 

Yes, that is something different to what I described if no direct command is given. I use a clicker to shape Alfie in stages for things like retrieving - building up the behaviour chain until he is eventually able to do the whole retrieve in one go (we're still working on that!) and I am using whistle cues and hand signals as well as voice commands for this. I do not however click and praise until he has completed one full stage i.e. at the moment we are doing waits while I throw the dummy and proper directional send aways to bring the dummy back, so I would not click him for a partial wait where he 'hovered' rather than sat properly or a send away where he did not watch my hand signal to see which direction I am sending him in. For his field training a combination of voice, whistle and hand signals are all needed (because of working at a distance) so I can't discard any of them at this stage and a pretty high level of precision is needed to avoid confusion for Alfie, although I will do away with the voice commands when he is more advanced.

[kb]

It's probably my fault - I didn't explain what I meant very well

[bluegirl]

The down position is not a natural command for a dog it puts them in a vulnerable position apparently according to a DVD we borrowed about working gundogs.
We don't work the dogs but because I had 2 pups I was worried they may get into difficulty with others dogs when off lead walking so I wanted a command that would give me control. We watched this dvd of a man training young pointers and he had about 20 in a field, he raised his hand and just said sit and everyone went into the down position until told to move, so we thought if he can do that with so many there's hope for 2 cockers
I don't know how the technique sits with the behaviourists but he gets a young dog and puts it in the down position and it's head must stay down and he keeps saying the command. He repeats every day giving only praise when the pup does it and within a week the pup will do it automatically. Ours took 2 weeks to teach and they'll do a perfect down (although we called it "flat" every time now.
Can't remember the name of the DVD but if I find it quickly I'll give you the name.