how to stop stealing

[Cuckoo4Cockers]

Our Charlie will steal ANYTHING if you leave it lying around. TBH we haven't tried to train him out of it. 

I just thought it was rather amusing puppy behavior. 

I have all my groceries delivered and Charlie goes absolutely bonkers rummaging through all the bags looking for his weekly Jumbone. He has bitten through a milk carton, eaten a lemon, washing powder tablets etc but it's no harm - he's just being curious in my eyes.

Sometimes he is hard work but then i think to myself - I would hate having such a calm dog that wasn't interested in anything.

He did steal his Dads codliver oil tabs the other day on the coffee table and ate it - I think it's made his coat more glossy! 

[Robbie34]

Saying NO is different to "Leave it" no is a punishment where as leave it is a command which can be followed by praise.

You are ascribing to a dog a degree of intelligence that it doesn't possess.  It matters little what word you use just so long as the dog performs the action required by that word.  I prefer to use no because it is short and easily understood.  Charley gets praise when he responds to no, as much as any other word.  I use "good boy" more frequently than anything else.  We also play games when he's looking for something.  If he heads in the wrong direction I say "no," so he then moves in the other direction.  If he's right I say "yes."  This is positive reinforcement.

It's no fun having a badly behaved dog that you can't trust.  It's hard, but rewarding, work bringing up a puppy and experiencing the joy of a trustworth y dog.

A good friend of mine passed away in September.  He loved Charley, and expressed a wish that he should attend his funeral service.  The service was held at Cheltenham College Chapel, and the minister was asked by my friend's family if he would allow Charley in the Chapel for the service.  No problem apparently, so we drove down to Cheltenham the day before and attended the service.  We got some strange looks with me leading Charley into church.  Charley was as good as gold, although he stood up for the hymns and put his front paws on the pew in front.  I had no qualms about him going to church because he is totally trustworthy.  I can take my dog anywhere and I know he won't disgrace me.

[Cob-Web]

Saying NO is different to "Leave it" no is a punishment where as leave it is a command which can be followed by praise.

You are ascribing to a dog a degree of intelligence that it doesn't possess.  It matters little what word you use just so long as the dog performs the action required by that word.  I prefer to use no because it is short and easily understood.

So what "action" do you attach to the word NO?   I agree entirely that a dog doesn't possess the level of intelligence to understand that you mean "leave it" when you use the word NO one minute, but "stand still" when you use the word NO an hour later 

Of course it doesn't matter what words you use to train your dog ,as long as a specific word is associated with the same behaviour each time.  To many times I have heard the word NO used as a vague "stop what you are doing" command in 101 different scenarios; with no clear instruction to the dog of which particlar element of the behaviour at that moment in time the dog should change.
 
If you personally only use the word NO to mean "don't touch" - then that works for you; but if so, then I am sure you don't equally expect your dog to understand that NO means "stop", "off" or "wait" as well - they are all distinctly different behaviours from the dog, with totally different outcomes. Is it any wonder that people say that their dog ignores them when they say NO - when the word NO is used to mean different things at different times.

[Spaniel Girl]

I have to agree with Robbie, dogs don't understand english, rather they understand the tone you use, even facial and body expressions can signal pleasure or displeasure to a dog.  I had the pleasure last year in South Wales of watching Springer Spaniels being trained to the gun with the trainer just using a whistle and at one point walking back down the lane to the kennels he had the dog going from left to right just using different blow on the whistle.

[Robbie34]

When I say "no" to Charley it means that he stops any action that he was intent on doing.  It doesn't matter what it was, he doesn't proceed.  If I want him to stay then I tell him to "stay".

Much of this is a meaningless argument over the use of terminology.  You can choose to use any word you like, just so long as your dog has a clear understanding of what you want it to do.  I can't speak for others, but there is no degree of ambiguity in the commands that I give my dog.  You are also not making allowance for the relationship that an owner has with their dog which is also an important factor.

[Robbie34]

dogs don't understand english, rather they understand the tone you use, even facial and body expressions can signal pleasure or displeasure to a dog.  I had the pleasure last year in South Wales of watching Springer Spaniels being trained to the gun with the trainer just using a whistle and at one point walking back down the lane to the kennels he had the dog going from left to right just using different blow on the whistle.

Absolutely.  Dogs will pick up on all of these. 

[Cob-Web]

When I say "no" to Charley it means that he stops any action that he was intent on doing.  It doesn't matter what it was, he doesn't proceed. 

I think we will have to agree to disagree, Robbie   

Although my experience is limited, I have followed the advice of professional dog trainers (including members of COL) by avoiding the use of "no" - imo, it does not give the dog the best possible chance of understanding what is expected of it and I prefer to give my dogs every chance of success 

As for relying on the relationship between dog and handler - I greatly admire those people who have such a strong bond with their dog that they appear to communicate by telepathy (there are a few at agility) - but it is not appropriate for me and my dogs    I need my dogs to be able to understand and respond to commands given to them by anyone, even if they have not met them before    I am dependent on professional dog-care in times of emergency - and I do not want my dog to be so focused on me that they are unable to respond to others - and I actively train them to do this by ensuring that others handle and train them 

dogs don't understand english, rather they understand the tone you use, even facial and body expressions can signal pleasure or displeasure to a dog.  I had the pleasure last year in South Wales of watching Springer Spaniels being trained to the gun with the trainer just using a whistle and at one point walking back down the lane to the kennels he had the dog going from left to right just using different blow on the whistle.

Absolutely.  Dogs will pick up on all of these. 

Could it be that the dog has been trained to understand that one tone/blow of the whistle means left, and a different one means right.......?

[Aearoniel]

I was just going to suggest this, Callie is currently being whistle trained.

Stop - short sharp whistle
Sit - single long whistle, quite low rather than a shrill blast
This way - Two short whistles
Come - Three whistles (short, short, long)

If I just whistle randomly she hasn't a clue! It's the different number whistles or even the tone of the whistle that conveys the command, rather than a single type of whistle.

removing behaviours which have appeared to remove them it is often best to focus your training on that one thing. Use the same command to stop anything at all in the dog is not focussed enough and has masses of mixed meanings which the lower ability dog then has to figure out all at once. Also we looked at commonly use words in the english language and no (84) (Leave was 321) is higher on the list so you could be talking conversationally and say the word adding to the confusion.

Getting back on topic there have been lots of different ideas to help the problem but try to keep it positive and assign a command and stick to it. Praise is key to positive training methods

[Robbie34]

I think we will have to agree to disagree

Charley is my dog and understands every word that I say to him.  He also knows what is expected of him and has succeeded in this.  He is my constant companion and can almost talk.  We have mentioned pawing before; something to which you are averse.  Communication is a two way process, and that is how it is with me and Charley.   It doesn't come easily, you have to work at it.  One example of this is Charley has dry eye and needs medication numerous times per day.  I call him by saying "let me see those eyes."  Whereupon he comes into the kitchen and jumps on to the chair for me to clean his eyes and insert drops and ointment.  Sometimes, of his own accord, he will jump on the chair and sit there waiting for me to attend to his eyes.  He will do this when I don't see the need for any treatment, but I go along with it.  I'm not certain if he does this because his eyes are sore, or because he wants some Doggy Chocs.  Extra Viscotears won't do any harm so it's no problem.

I have had a dog as a pet since I was a little boy, but Charley has proved to be the best of them all because we have never been separated.  Childhood pets were more like my Mum's dogs because school and university precluded such a close relationship.

[winewood]

Thank you so much for all the replies, didn't mean to cause a stir. I have calmed down now, and she is fine, had she have had any I would have seen a reaction by now luckily she is OK, it just scared the daylights out of me. On the whole she is a well trained dog, if she runs away with a sock she has taken from the washing basket I only have to say in a stern voice give it back and she will, she does understand NO, and also knows that when she is called Indiana this is serious and must respond immediately, so Indiana No or bad girl means stop or drop what you have or let it go. So I see it that she understands No and responds appropriately, my problem is 90% of the time everything is up and out of their way,I can leave food on the coffee table and neither of them would touch the plate even if we left the room (although there would be a large drool beside each dog) and usually tired after the days outings of Obed training, agility, or just running around the park, would be in her bed asleep in the lounge room and I don't' have to worry where she is. The tablets were left in a sports bag and forgotten, she had already taken a sock which she gave to me when asked but I had no idea the tablets were also in the bag.
I think we all just have to remember they are dogs and no matter how much training and how much we think they can reason they are dogs and  full of energy, they can't rationalise, if it smells good, or looks interesting and no one is around to say NO or whatever word they will do it cockers are breed to rumage and flush.
 I'm undecided about setting her up because if I put a bag out then next time she might go in a drawer and find something or an open cupboard you cant' cover everything, so I'm thinking more, keep energy levels low lots of work running and problems for her to solve keeping her mind active so at the end of each day she is tired. It was my fault she got into the bag, it was raining and we had'nt been out that day so she was full of energy and was just up to anything she was bored and bored dogs do bad things.
Thanks again must go take them out of a walk

[Top Barks]

Thought Id have my two penneth on this subject.
Firstly all owners have there own ways and are entitled to them, that does not mean to say I or others have to agree with them.
Every dog /owner relationship will differ in some way but one thing is for sure is that dogs learn in the same way and that is by association and there is no disputing the science behind this.
When you say a word to a dog they learn to associate it with an action ie dog puts bum on the floor we say sit and after a number of rewarded repetitions the word becomes associated with what the dog is doing.
Robbie if your dog understands every word you say to him  then either you have spent countless hours training him to associate every word you say with all sorts of actions for which I salute you or you are deluding yourself.
I do a lot of training and I mean a lot of training with my boys and at the moment I am trying to teach the word slippers so they will eventually find them whereever they be in the house.
I have been doing this for a few weeks and I think the penny is starting to drop but it has taken time.
They still do not 100% get what I want.
Rachel  it is not telepathy! It is usually subtle signals given off by our body which we perform without realising it that the dog reads.
My dogs read me like a book.
Going back to the original problem I personally believe that setting my dog up to fail is a very bad idea.
Dogs do not have the concept of right or wrong, its either safe or dangerous to do something period.
Dogs also learn to override punisher's which means you have to up the level of punishment and punishment in the hands of the unskilled is abuse waiting to happen.
Also there is lots of negative emotion involved in punishment.
I do agree you could teach a dog a no reward marker which can be NO and can used in several different contexts but I prefer to interupt the undesired behaviour and teach a more desirable one in it's place.
If my dogs are counter surfing I could shout NO but I prefer to give the dog instruction instead and use off which is specific to that situation, they get off and are rewarded for doing so.
If I want my dogs to leave I say leave because I have taught them what I want.
What does the word No teach a dog?
If dogs don't speak English do you think they understand a word you use in all different contexts?
More likely in my oppinion they read your body language and think they are in for it as they associate the word and your tone with something bad.
When used in this way the word NO does act as a punisher.
Teach boundaries by all means but understand that the dog needs positive direction to get it right and not punishment if he gets it wrong.
To punish a dog is easy but to train a dog to what you want takes time, patience and dedication every body to there own but I know which road I go down.
Set your self up to win and not to fail and enjoy having a dog rather than constantly punishing and punishing some more, I couldn't be arsed owning a dog if that was what i had to do all the time.
Mark

[Robbie34]

I'm certainly not deluding myself.   My dog understands every command I give to him, and of course we all learn by association.  Indeed, dogs learn through the association of a stimulus and a response, and this association is a learned one.  Pavlov referred to this as classical conditioning. I am with my dog every hour of the day, and he has learnt from my actions.  He has plenty of stimulation from a whole variety of experiences and that has created his character and personality.  Just as children should be exposed to a variety of experiences and stimuli, so should dogs.  Charley is not left alone for long periods and that is where a lot of problems arise.

The whole business of appropriate or inappropriate language is futile. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using NO, or any other word for that matter.  The important thing is that the dog learns to respond to that word.  Because the word NO is a negative construction, that does not mean that the dog perceives it as such.

Where have I used the word punishment?  It's not a word in my vocabulary as far as learning goes.  Saying NO to a dog is not punishment by any stretch of the imagination.  What do you say if your dog is going to run into danger?  Do you wait so that you can give it some alternative instruction? In the case of Charley it would be "NO, Stay."  My dog would not be the happy, contented, little dog that he is if he were subjected to punishment, nor would his learning have been effective.

[Cob-Web]

The whole business of appropriate or inappropriate language is futile. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using NO, or any other word for that matter. 

I have found this discussion anything but "futile" - it has been incredibly interesting to hear how others work with their dogs and train them to achieve    

As Mark said, everyone trains their dogs differently; and it is unrealistic to expect everyone to agree with "our" way    When I am trying to teach something new, or deal with a new situation, I seek out and read as many different opinions/methods as possible, so that I can make up my own mind and use a methods that makes sense to me 

[Top Barks]

I'm certainly not deluding myself.   My dog understands every command I give to him, and of course we all learn by association.  Indeed, dogs learn through the association of a stimulus and a response, and this association is a learned one.  Pavlov referred to this as classical conditioning. I am with my dog every hour of the day, and he has learnt from my actions.  He has plenty of stimulation from a whole variety of experiences and that has created his character and personality.  Just as children should be exposed to a variety of experiences and stimuli, so should dogs.  Charley is not left alone for long periods and that is where a lot of problems arise.

The whole business of appropriate or inappropriate language is futile. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using NO, or any other word for that matter.  The important thing is that the dog learns to respond to that word.  Because the word NO is a negative construction, that does not mean that the dog perceives it as such.

Where have I used the word punishment?  It's not a word in my vocabulary as far as learning goes.  Saying NO to a dog is not punishment by any stretch of the imagination.  What do you say if your dog is going to run into danger?  Do you wait so that you can give it some alternative instruction? In the case of Charley it would be "NO, Stay."  My dog would not be the happy, contented, little dog that he is if he were subjected to punishment, nor would his learning have been effective.

Well done you for teaching your dog all sorts of different cues!
Just out of interest how many cues would you say you have 100% generalised and under stimulus control?
If your dog is as good as you say then when can we expect to see you in the obedience ring at Crufts?
You are  partly right about the link to Pavlov and thanks for mentioning it but associative learning can also be operant conditioning as well as classical so we better mention BF Skinner in this debate as well as I 'm sure he would be offended if we left him out.
I do find classical and operant learning fascinating and I am well versed in both and I would love to hear your thoughts on the relationship between the two types of learning mentioned.
With regard to Saying the word NO not being a punisher then you have to look at the definition of punishment.
Punishment is anything that decreases the frequency or likelyhood of a behaviour occurring again.
If you use the word NO to stop a behaviour then I am afraid technically you ARE using Punishment.
This ain't an issue for me as we all do and say things no matter how inconspicuous with the intent of decreasing the frequency of unwanted behaviour.  Because of this to say I never use punishment would be wrong of me I just use it selectively and carefully. Punishment in my house can indeed be just a  certain look from me and nothing more.
Sometimes your actions can be punishing to the dog without you even realising it.
With regard to your dog running towards traffic then I do not see the reason to even utter the word NO, why would you waste your breath and time when you can use that fabulous emergency recall or emergency stop you have already taken the time to train which your dog fully understands.
True If I had trained an emergency stop and rather than using a short PIP on the whistle I had chosen the Cue NOoooo then I would use it. Then the word Noooo would then be an instruction to the dog that had consequence and meaning, it would be black and white with no grey area for the dog to misunderstand. We expect a dog to decipher one word Nooo used in many contexts and they have to figure out what you want, why not just tell them and train them what you want them to do.
If a dog is doing something you do not like  then teach it to do something incompatible with the undesired behaviour.
My dogs love the dishwasher and love to lick the plates.
I don't want this to happen so rather than Nooo I call them to the middle of the room and put them in a down which they are rewarded for.
Over time and if i do it often enough my dogs will learn that when the dishwasher opens they lie down and they get a treat.
How could I modify this by just saying Noo don't do that, gees you'd be saying it forever and the dog will learn it's ok to do the dishwashing if you are not there to be angry at it.

Words can mean anything to dogs if you condition them in the right way and indeed I could get my dog to sit on a word such as supercalofragalisiticxbeealidocios if I wanted to  but that would be futile
If you want your dog to do something in a certain context then why mess around using a word you use  everytime the dog does something you don't like which may not generalise to that situation.
If the dog does not respond then we get angry and we tend to shout a little louder and get just a little more frustrated.
Cut the ambiguity and train the dog to do What you want instead of telling it what you don't.
Mark

[Robbie34]

If your dog is as good as you say then when can we expect to see you in the obedience ring at Crufts? 

I have never suggested that my dog is super obedient.  Could you give me an instance of where I have stated that?  Indeed, I have stated very clearly in other posts about behaviour that my dog would never earn top marks in obedience trials where dogs are exhibited to perform a variety of tricks.  I have never trained him to fetch my slippers, roll over, sit up nicely, etc.  Those commands are not a part of his repertoire.  Charley is well behaved and well adjusted.  He does not bite, snarl or snap at people, and is accepting of other animals.  You can see a picture that I posted of him with a semi-feral cat in France that "adopted" us.  He is not destructive and does not steal.  I can remove anything from him without saying anything to him and he will accept this without demur.  He is totally trustworthy.  This is how I have brought up my dog.  He is not a superdog: the same can be achieved by anyone willing to invest time and effort.

The original post was about a dog that was stealing, not about obedience trials.   In a quote from Proverbs: "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old he will not depart from it."  The same can be said of a dog: substitute puppy for child.  I would not tolerate a destructive, untrustworthy dog, and I certainly would not find it amusing if I returned to my car or home to find it ravaged by my dog.  That is what training and obedience is about, not performing tricks for the edification of others.

Where is the ambiguity?  It may exist in your mind but not in mine, nor are any of my commands ambiguous to my dog.

We have already gone over the use of words, ad nauseam, so why bring it up again?  I have previously stated that you can use any word you like just so long as your dog uses the appropriate action for that word.

Your reference to Skinner and operant conditioning is another approach to the study of habit formation.  When you teach a dog a trick, such as playing dead, it is quite difficult to specify the unconditional stimuli that could produce such behaviour before conditioning.  However, that is for discussion elsewhere and is hardly appropriate to this forum.