After a little advice

[Karma]

As some of you may remember, we've had a few issues with Honey over the last few months.
First of all she started guarding us - fortunately we can manage this by watching for signs and taking fewer treats out.  But she then lost a lot of confidence about reading doggie body language, especially with bigger dogs (and especially labs and golden retreivers) - she's fine if they are overtly in play mode, but when they are standing still she seems to get very subdued and not know what to do and then resorts to barking at them... 

This is what we are doing to help the situation:

1.  We are going to a Doggie Fun Club - a group of young dogs where there is opportunity for play in a controlled environment, but also team games, owner-dog play etc
2.  We have started clicker obedience - hoping to help her relax around other dogs a bit more (she's doing really well!!!  ).
3.  We're intervening in her meetings with other dogs, by calling her away before she gets too uncomfortable - I only do this if it's a dog we meet by chance - if it's a dog I know we can walk along with for a while, and I know the owner is happy, we'll walk along together and let them sort it out themselves - I don't want Honey to need me to get her out of situations, but letting her get to the point of barking will reinforce the behaviour, so I think it is the lesser of two evils... Does this make sense??  I don't use recall for this, as there is always the chance her movement could to the dogs playing and if she was set on a recall she would be very unimpressed with another dog getting in the way!
4. Praising all positive interaction with other dogs.
5. Putting her on lead when we see a couple of particular dogs she does not like.

My difficulty is if we haven't read the situation properly and she does bark - I can call her away with a recall very reliably, but I don't want to treat in case this reinforces the barking.  On the other hand I don't want to reduce the reliability of her recall by not rewarding.  What I have done so far is not rewarded for the recall away from the confrontation, but done several recalls later in the walk so that receiving a treat is reinforced.  However she is very clever and I do worry that she will figure out I am not rewarding when I recall her from a confrontation, and so start to ignore me....

Any opinions on this gratefully received - also any other suggestions about what else may help??

[spanielcrazy]

You can treat intermittently for the "recall with dogs"  There's even a fancy term behaviourists use for this which I forget  but basically it means that sometimes the dog hits the jackpot and sometimes she doesn't, so she has to keep checking to see. The idea is that she won;t get bored or "immune" to the treats if she never knows for sure when they are coming

[LisaB]

Discrimination training or partial reinforcement is the fancy name . 

[Helper and Seeker]

Any update about this Barney?

Food aggression and guarding is a very common thing with any breed.  Our American Cocker Tara was very badly abused when we rescued her from a pub and she was everything aggressive.  We got her at a mature age but the food and toy and space aggression we did put a stop too.

I have had many food aggressive and toy aggressive doggies that I have fostered over the years and all bar a couple I have put a stop to it.  As a rule once a dog feels truly safe and trust is built you can accomplish nearly anything.

Rage syndrome is not very common but does occur alot in the solid Goldens/Reds/Tans but is the extreme diagnosis and the fact that the behaviour occurs at set times and events makes me say this is a mis diagnosis as Rage Syndrome as others have said tends to happen in split seconds and Barney does it at meal times and play times etc

Don't mean to get anyones back up but I reckon the kids and the family life is the reason the dog is behaving in such a scared and frustrated and fearful way. 

I think this poor dog is just as scared as your kids.

The fact that two of your children have been bitten shows there are some major problems that need addressing.  I really hope Barney bit the kids first before biting any adults,  if the other way around then your child protection leaves alot to be desired.

I really hope that a rescue can take Barney and help him and save this poor lad from the needle.

[Karma]

Barney was a different thread! 

His owners gave him to NESSR for assessment and rehoming.  He is currently in foster while they have time to work with him before finding him a suitable home.  His owners realised their home was not the right one for him and made the hardest decision to give him up so that he could have a better life. 

 


BTW - from what I have read Rage doesn't "occur a lot" in the solid red colours... 

[Karma]

Oh - and thank you to those you answered my question!

I thought with recall, unless it was really really well established, you should always treat - Honey has a specific recall treat that she never ever gets except for a good recall, and this has led to her recall being very reliable... How does partial reinforcement work with this?? As she is still an adolescent I don't want to do anything to derail her recall.... it's all so comlicated!!! 

[Helper and Seeker]

Barney was a different thread! 

His owners gave him to NESSR for assessment and rehoming.  He is currently in foster while they have time to work with him before finding him a suitable home.  His owners realised their home was not the right one for him and made the hardest decision to give him up so that he could have a better life. 

 


BTW - from what I have read Rage doesn't "occur a lot" in the solid red colours... 

Thanks for that my fault for presuming that the vets visit was for the same dog and not a reply to a totally different thread in error.

I have only known Rage in the solid reds but have known a couple of cases in black and whites and one red and white also.  Never come accross it in a solid black or brown though. 

But have learnt over the years that what is common for one is not for another so in some ways facts are meaningless lol

[Top Barks]

I would reward coming away from other dogs EVERY TIME, because She is choosing the right response.
This situation is precisely when you want need your dog to respond.
I would want that response conditioned so that the dog acts instinctively without having to think.
You could maybe introduce a new recall cue which you reward with only the best treats and for at least thirty seconds when your dog comes.
There is a really good DVD which should be on every owners Christmas list called The Really Reliable Recall.
You can get it in this country now on the web from positive animal solutions.
Recall is the one thing I have on a continuous shedule of reward, I vary my rewards however with lower value items for run of the mill recall but for something like this I would be jackpotting with something real good.
Does Honey check in with you?
If not that is something else I would be reinforcing.

Just a quick one Helper and Seeker, welcome to COL. How was rage in the dogs you describe diagnosed and by who?

[Helper and Seeker]

Thanks Mark for the welcome.

Rage was diagnosed by an experienced breeder in all 3 incidences all goldens/reds.  A vet was the last person to ask as they did not know enough then and you tended to return to the breeder you bought the dog from if you had any problems also dog trainers and behaviourists were not around when I was younger, Barbara Woodhouse was about it. 

Just called my Mum and asked her what she remembers.   She said they all had the same behaviour traits all just used to like go funny as though not all there and then just savagely lash out and bite without warning at whoever or whatever was about.

The couple I came accross in latter years were with other rescues and were ones I just witnessed and knew about but they were the same one minute curled up asleep the next attacking the dog next to them or the person nearest.  Looking totally spaced out as though high on drugs and then after just exhausted and disorientated.

We stopped our rescue involvement after the nursing needs of my grandparents took priority.

[Jane S]

Please can we keep this thread on topic as it's very confusing to have a discussion about Rage Syndrome in a thread which has nothing to do with this

Thanks

[Top Barks]

Please can we keep this thread on topic as it's very confusing to have a discussion about Rage Syndrome in a thread which has nothing to do with this

Thanks

Apologies Jane, should have used PM.

[Karma]

I would reward coming away from other dogs EVERY TIME, because She is choosing the right response.
This situation is precisely when you want need your dog to respond.
I would want that response conditioned so that the dog acts instinctively without having to think.
You could maybe introduce a new recall cue which you reward with only the best treats and for at least thirty seconds when your dog comes.
There is a really good DVD which should be on every owners Christmas list called The Really Reliable Recall.
You can get it in this country now on the web from positive animal solutions.
Recall is the one thing I have on a continuous shedule of reward, I vary my rewards however with lower value items for run of the mill recall but for something like this I would be jackpotting with something real good.
Does Honey check in with you?
If not that is something else I would be reinforcing.

Thanks Mark - Honey does check in (and if I think she's not paying enough attention to checking where I am I hide  ) though it is often just a "fly by" - should we be getting her to walk alongside us until we release her again?? 
I do have to be careful about having a variety of treats, as this tends to bring out her potential for guarding - she accepts that as she only gets a recall treat for a recall other dogs are no threat to that (unless they get in the way of her recall, and then she is so focussed on getting back to me that it's a quick bark to tell them to get out of her way).  I have recently started being able to carry a small number of fairly low value treats for some occassional reinforcement of things like checking in and getting her lead on at the end of the walk.  We are managing OK at the dog club with a pocket full of sausage and cheese, as there is just so much going on (and TBH most of the other dogs there wouldn't stand for her nonsense anyway!), so I'm hoping in time we can be more relaxed about treats out and about, but I do have to be very careful - I took her ball out this morning and she wasn't happy about other dogs coming anywhere near me - once we had had our 20 mins of ball play and I put the ball away again she was fine, I think because she knew the ball was finished, so she knew other dogs wouldn't interfere with this.... 

She really is a complex little character!!   

She seems to have learnt that barking at dogs when she feels a bit intimidated isn't actually the best response, as she got told off by a dog for doing that on Friday (up till now it's been self-rewarding as the dog has run away...) and over the weekend we had lots of good decisions of just coming away from other dogs when they were getting too much for her (so she got lots of praise and treats for that!  ).

Again, thank you for your advice - will put the DVD on my Christmas List!