CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Activities => Working => Topic started by: SkyeandOllie on January 31, 2011, 11:03:11 AM
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little help please guys!! As you may know, we are keen to get Ollie into some sort of gundog training. I know someone who has a cocker bitch and he has given me some dummies covered with rabbit skin and one with pheasent feathers. He was scared of these funny smelling things at first! :005: Hes always been quite possesive, not agressive at all but if he has his 'prize' he'll duck away from you so you dont get it. Now when we are working on the retrieve, he'll go out, pick it up and trot around being very proud. If I call him and have a treat he will run to me, drop it about 4 ft away, get his treat then trot away again with the dummy in his mouth. how do I get him to bring and hold the dummy and not be so possesive of it?! He is just over 6 months now
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I would use 2 plain canvass dummies. throw one and as he comes round, encourage him closer wiht your food. As he drops the dummy, throw the second for him to fetch. Keep a mental note of how close he was to you when he dropped hte first. when he comes back with the second encourage him in again,a nd this time, he has to come an inch closer than before..if he does, throw the second dummy again. Continue over several sessions until he brings it all the way back.
Or attach a long line to the dummy so that he can't wander off with it.
Or do retrives in a narrow chanel (hallways are good) so that he cannot evade you.
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thanks, so, do you think that the covered ones are too much for him just now? good idea with the longline, I'll try that too. I'll do some trades with him too, see if I can get him to swap
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Alfie was just like this too (and much older).......we changed our approach to his retrieve completely and we still use this now....he doesn't have to give it up straight away, we call him to us and walk a little way while he 'holds'....then we ask him to sit and stroke him calmly telling him he is a good boy, then he is happy to release on a 'dead' command. At the beginning, he was very happy to go find the dummies but he really wasn't sure whether he should bring it back and give it to us, his body language changed completely and he would go and hide.....as if he thought he was in trouble....so we took the pressure of him to 'reveal' what he done and just called him to heel while we walked off.....worked a treat....he's soooo chuffed with himself these days :005: :005:
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To discourage premature dropping of the dummy when first training my dog I first taught him the "hold" command, meaning you hold whatever is in your mouth until I tell you to give it up. When he came back with the retrieve I would walk away, which only encouraged him to follow along at a heel while carrying the dummy. I'd then ask him to sit and hold while calmly praising him for doing so. The dummy should only be released to hand on command. The point of this exercise is for the dog to feel good and confident about the retrieve by allowing him to hold his prize and by not taking the dummy away from him too early.
Personally I don't recommend using treats when training for a retrieve since dogs tend to spit out the dummy early in order to eat the treat. The thrill of the retrieve and your praise should be enough of a reward.
I'd suggest you start out with smaller and lighter canvas dummies on a young and inexperienced dog before moving onto heaver and more lifelike ones.
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To discourage premature dropping of the dummy when first training my dog I first taught him the "hold" command, meaning you hold whatever is in your mouth until I tell you to give it up. When he came back with the retrieve I would walk away, which only encouraged him to follow along at a heel while carrying the dummy. I'd then ask him to sit and hold while calmly praising him for doing so. The dummy should only be released to hand on command. The point of this exercise is for the dog to feel good and confident about the retrieve by allowing him to hold his prize and by not taking the dummy away from him too early.
Personally I don't recommend using treats when training for a retrieve since dogs tend to spit out the dummy early in order to eat the treat. The thrill of the retrieve and your praise should be enough of a reward.
I'd suggest you start out with smaller and lighter canvas dummies on a young and inexperienced dog before moving onto heaver and more lifelike ones.
Very well written ..... I was always taught NOT to allow the dog to drop the dummy as it may become a bad habit and not what you want on a shoot. We always use the word DEAD when taking the dummy or game. But that said the training methods used above may well work over time so not personally wanting to critisize any other methods if it works too... but as a gamekeeper once pointed out to me if a bad habit like dropping the game is allowed to continue it may cause problems especially if the game is still alive the last thing you want is a runner .....
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To discourage premature dropping of the dummy when first training my dog I first taught him the "hold" command, meaning you hold whatever is in your mouth until I tell you to give it up. When he came back with the retrieve I would walk away, which only encouraged him to follow along at a heel while carrying the dummy. I'd then ask him to sit and hold while calmly praising him for doing so. The dummy should only be released to hand on command. The point of this exercise is for the dog to feel good and confident about the retrieve by allowing him to hold his prize and by not taking the dummy away from him too early.
Personally I don't recommend using treats when training for a retrieve since dogs tend to spit out the dummy early in order to eat the treat. The thrill of the retrieve and your praise should be enough of a reward.
I'd suggest you start out with smaller and lighter canvas dummies on a young and inexperienced dog before moving onto heaver and more lifelike ones.
Yes well written I'm having problems of spitting the dummy and that was brought about when treats were first used. At our training class we are always told to NEVER be in a rush to take the dummy. I've made some classic mistakes with my dog thats what happens when he's your first dog and you have family. He retrieves when he knows its a retrieve but spits out, if he finds something though its a different matter. I've had a one-one with my trainer and he found a prize and wouldn't come to me. He asked does he have things taken off him at home. Well he's a little b*gger at pinching the washing off the radiators I said. What he said made so much sense. I'm now going to teach him the hold to hopfully over come this little problem of spitting.
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Personally I don't recommend using treats when training for a retrieve since dogs tend to spit out the dummy early in order to eat the treat. The thrill of the retrieve and your praise should be enough of a reward.
I have to disagree in some cases treats can be used if the dog spits out the dummy early it don't get the treat they soon learn!
I have three dogs with fab retrieves all to hand and done using food ;)
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Personally I don't recommend using treats when training for a retrieve since dogs tend to spit out the dummy early in order to eat the treat. The thrill of the retrieve and your praise should be enough of a reward.
I have to disagree in some cases treats can be used if the dog spits out the dummy early it don't get the treat they soon learn!
I have three dogs with fab retrieves all to hand and done using food ;)
In some cases... I agree. Every dog is different and a handler should use whatever works best for that individual dog. My spaniel isn't food motivated so I never use treats when training him, but he lives and breathes for the retrieve, which is what I use to my advantage. If the dog is a natural retriever then treats aren't necessary as the retrieve is his greatest reward.
However, in the case of building a reliable retrieve, MOST people are inclined to use a treat incorrectly by luring the dog to come and inadvertently reinforcing the premature dropping behavior in anticipation of food. Treats should be used to reinforce the "hold" command by only rewarding once the dog has properly delivered to hand.
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Personally I don't recommend using treats when training for a retrieve since dogs tend to spit out the dummy early in order to eat the treat. The thrill of the retrieve and your praise should be enough of a reward.
I have to disagree in some cases treats can be used if the dog spits out the dummy early it don't get the treat they soon learn!
I have three dogs with fab retrieves all to hand and done using food ;)
In some cases... I agree. Every dog is different and a handler should use whatever works best for that individual dog. My spaniel isn't food motivated so I never use treats when training him, but he lives and breathes for the retrieve, which is what I use to my advantage. If the dog is a natural retriever then treats aren't necessary as the retrieve is his greatest reward.
However, in the case of building a reliable retrieve, MOST people are inclined to use a treat incorrectly by luring the dog to come and inadvertently reinforcing the premature dropping behavior in anticipation of food. Treats should be used to reinforce the "hold" command by only rewarding once the dog has properly delivered to hand.
Yep your right I made the mistake at a early age of using treats and ever since has dropped his retrieve(my mistake >:()I have read a thread on the gundog forum of training the hold using treats which seems to have good success. I've not used treats for his training for sometime now but I think I might have to go back to them to reinforce some training as I can't use the retrieve as a reward yet.
Treats are a tool that doesn't seem to be used by the experienced gundog trainers unless they have a difficult dog but clicker training seems to talked about more often I see on the other forums.
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Personally I don't recommend using treats when training for a retrieve since dogs tend to spit out the dummy early in order to eat the treat. The thrill of the retrieve and your praise should be enough of a reward.
I have to disagree in some cases treats can be used if the dog spits out the dummy early it don't get the treat they soon learn!
I have three dogs with fab retrieves all to hand and done using food ;)
In some cases... I agree. Every dog is different and a handler should use whatever works best for that individual dog. My spaniel isn't food motivated so I never use treats when training him, but he lives and breathes for the retrieve, which is what I use to my advantage. If the dog is a natural retriever then treats aren't necessary as the retrieve is his greatest reward.
However, in the case of building a reliable retrieve, MOST people are inclined to use a treat incorrectly by luring the dog to come and inadvertently reinforcing the premature dropping behavior in anticipation of food. Treats should be used to reinforce the "hold" command by only rewarding once the dog has properly delivered to hand.
So you are saying food is OK in the right hands? ;)
I do totally agree with you Praia, I just think it is a fallacy to say you should NEVER use food as a reward for a retrieve as sometimes the retrieve needs value to be built in. I work with a lot of dogs who are not natural retrievers who do need external motivation.
I think with any form of training it is the skill and forward thinking of the trainer to prevent problems and time rewards appropriately that makes the difference in achieving a successful outcome.
Tis rather handy to have a spaniels motivated by both food and retrieves mind you ;)
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I tend to avoid offering the food out and use a clicker instead which reduces the tempation to drop the dummy too early but still allows you to tap into that greedy spaniel instinct. :lol2:
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I tend to avoid offering the food out and use a clicker instead which reduces the tempation to drop the dummy too early but still allows you to tap into that greedy spaniel instinct. :lol2:
Totally, the food should not be a bribe!!!
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well.... now Im confuzzled!! what should I do?! with treats or without?!he quite often drops it as soon as I call him or o the way back.
can someone please talk me through it step by step so I dont confuse him and get it right?!
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If he doesn't like giving the dummy up and using food makes him let go, then use it and as he lets go give your elave cue. He will eventually twig what you want him to do, then you cna fade the presence of food so that it is only given as a reward when he has given the dummy up, rather than having to use it to get him to let go (if you see what I mean)
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I really wouldn't bother doing any retrieves using food until you have cracked this. Its what I'm going to try, my dog loves retrieving but nealry always drops his retrieve. I want to use the retrieve as the reward in the end but need to train the spitting out first.
good luck ;)
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Personally I don't recommend using treats when training for a retrieve since dogs tend to spit out the dummy early in order to eat the treat. The thrill of the retrieve and your praise should be enough of a reward.
I have to disagree in some cases treats can be used if the dog spits out the dummy early it don't get the treat they soon learn!
I have three dogs with fab retrieves all to hand and done using food ;)
In some cases... I agree. Every dog is different and a handler should use whatever works best for that individual dog. My spaniel isn't food motivated so I never use treats when training him, but he lives and breathes for the retrieve, which is what I use to my advantage. If the dog is a natural retriever then treats aren't necessary as the retrieve is his greatest reward.
However, in the case of building a reliable retrieve, MOST people are inclined to use a treat incorrectly by luring the dog to come and inadvertently reinforcing the premature dropping behavior in anticipation of food. Treats should be used to reinforce the "hold" command by only rewarding once the dog has properly delivered to hand.
So you are saying food is OK in the right hands? ;)
I do totally agree with you Praia, I just think it is a fallacy to say you should NEVER use food as a reward for a retrieve as sometimes the retrieve needs value to be built in. I work with a lot of dogs who are not natural retrievers who do need external motivation.
I think with any form of training it is the skill and forward thinking of the trainer to prevent problems and time rewards appropriately that makes the difference in achieving a successful outcome.
Tis rather handy to have a spaniels motivated by both food and retrieves mind you ;)
I'm saying food is OK for the right dog and for the right person who actually knows how to use it correctly. As you said, timing rewards is what makes the difference in marking behavior, which seems to be the case here as the dog was not being rewarded for the correct behavior: holding versus dropping. The only reason I recommended against treats in building a dog's retrieve is, because many people end up rewarding and reinforcing the wrong behaviors. If a dog isn't a natural retriever and needs the extra motivation, use what works. If you know what you're doing and know how to get the timing right to mark the correct behavior then do whatever works best for you.
If you have a dog that is motivated by many things then that's great. It's probably easier just carrying a baggie of food around when training versus me who always has to carry a tennis ball or a dummy.
SkyandOllie, have you ever considered trying back chaining? A retrieve is basically just a chain of behaviors (sit, stay, fetch, sit, hold, give) and instead of starting at the beginning, back chaining is starting at the last sequence. In this situation the last behavior sequence would be the hold and release command.
Practice the hold command without him actually retrieving anything or walking around. Just have him sit with something in his mouth for short periods and only after giving him a release command do you treat or praise. Gradually extend the period of time he has to hold, gradually change up the situation so that he's holding while sitting up close/sitting far away/standing/walking to a heel/and eventually chasing after you. Throwing out the dummy and having him come back to you are going to be the last behaviors in the chain, but the point of back chaining is to gradually link all these behaviors together one after the other so that each behavior reinforces the last behavior. There are many videos on youtube that show dogs (most dogs with absolutely no instinctual drive to retrieve) being trained to retrieve through the back chaining.
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I used treats to train, and while I'm happy with Jarv's training I regret using treats to teach a retrieve - it took a long time to teach a hold, and I wish I'd started as Praia has suggested ;) I eventually had to back chain and it took me about 6 months to get the 'hold' solid (where he spat the dummy within 5 minutes with food!)
There are other ways I could have rewarded him apart from food - with him encouragement and praise would have been enough and the fun of the retrieve would have been an additional reward.
It was inexperience and hindsight is a wonderful thing :lol2:
What I would say is don't ram the training down their throats - build up gradually and stop after a few retrieves. You want them to be really keen to retrieve ;) And keep the dummies separate from the other toys, never let them 'play' with them - it makes them really valuable and gives them a purpose in your dogs eyes. As soon as dummy comes out of a cupboard Jarvis practically does cartwheels with excitement :lol2:
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Horses for courses I guess, I have never used food with Alfie never needed to but used food with Bayley and Douglas as I shaped their retrieves with a clicker.
Back chaining is a great way to teach this but with anything the dog has to find the behaviour motivating in the first place so it all depends on whether either the dog is motivated by the retrieve it's self as a lot of spaniels are or whether you need to apply external motivation.
I can see why it is easy to fail with food with this but then that is where the skill in deciding on an appropriate method to suit the dog comes in. ;)
Try teaching a bichon or a beagle without reinforcement, in my experience life gets a little more complicated. :005:
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Bichons are easy Mark, try an RBT instead ;) That dog was nearly the death of me over a retrive...we sweated blood to get it.
One of my spanish needed food as she was so frightened to retrieve, now she is a retrieve junkie. Tank is a retrieve junkie and does tend to find food too motivating but it is useful to get the polish that I needed.
My preference is to always shape a formal retrieve (by clicker or whatever) but I just let a play retrieve happen.
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Bichons are easy Mark, try an RBT instead ;) That dog was nearly the death of me over a retrive...we sweated blood to get it.
One of my spanish needed food as she was so frightened to retrieve, now she is a retrieve junkie. Tank is a retrieve junkie and does tend to find food too motivating but it is useful to get the polish that I needed.
My preference is to always shape a formal retrieve (by clicker or whatever) but I just let a play retrieve happen.
In my one experience of a RBT Pauline, I'd have to say I agree with you. :005: :005:
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Well, being that the dog in question is neither a bichon nor a beagle, but a working Cocker Spaniel, I would think the retrieve and praise would be enough motivation. In this situation food didn't necessarily set up the dog to fail, but the method in which it was used did.
In back chaining the dog doesn't necessarily have to find the behavior motivating since it falls under Premack's principle. The dog may not like holding the dummy or giving it up, but he sure does like that treat or that thrown out dummy once he successfully completes the chain of behaviors.
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Well, being that the dog in question is neither a bichon nor a beagle, but a working Cocker Spaniel, I would think the retrieve and praise would be enough motivation. In this situation food didn't necessarily set up the dog to fail, but the method in which it was used did.
In back chaining the dog doesn't necessarily have to find the behavior motivating since it falls under Premack's principle. The dog may not like holding the dummy or giving it up, but he sure does like that treat or that thrown out dummy once he successfully completes the chain of behaviors.
you simply cannot say praise is enough without knowing the dog whether it is a WCS or any other breed,I have three workers and a field spaniel all motivated by different things at different times. Your dog might quite happily work for praise, but others might not!
Even with back chaining the behaviour needs motivation to maintain it! Unless you force what you want in the first place, A lot of trainers still use these methods and even worse use the cessation of pain to get the dog to hold in the first place, personally I shape the last step of the behaviour chain first and the reward might be whatever motivates the dog (not always food) but last step of the chain or first the behaviour needs motivation to maintain it and increase the chances of it occurring again, that is where the premack principle comes in.
I'm not sure if you have ever worked with another breed or indeed many other breeds Praia but my reference to the other breeds is that doing so increases your need to come up with many ways of teaching the same behaviour.
I did say it was horses for courses in my last post.
PS I thank you for your explanation regarding back chaining and the premack principle. ;) :005: :clapping:
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Well, being that the dog in question is neither a bichon nor a beagle, but a working Cocker Spaniel, I would think the retrieve and praise would be enough motivation. In this situation food didn't necessarily set up the dog to fail, but the method in which it was used did.
In back chaining the dog doesn't necessarily have to find the behavior motivating since it falls under Premack's principle. The dog may not like holding the dummy or giving it up, but he sure does like that treat or that thrown out dummy once he successfully completes the chain of behaviors.
you simply cannot say praise is enough without knowing the dog whether it is a WCS or any other breed,I have three workers and a field spaniel all motivated by different things at different times. Your dog might quite happily work for praise, but others might not!
Even with back chaining the behaviour needs motivation to maintain it! Unless you force what you want in the first place, A lot of trainers still use these methods and even worse use the cessation of pain to get the dog to hold in the first place, personally I shape the last step of the behaviour chain first and the reward might be whatever motivates the dog (not always food) but last step of the chain or first the behaviour needs motivation to maintain it and increase the chances of it occurring again, that is where the premack principle comes in.
I'm not sure if you have ever worked with another breed or indeed many other breeds Praia but my reference to the other breeds is that doing so increases your need to come up with many ways of teaching the same behaviour.
I did say it was horses for courses in my last post.
PS I thank you for your explanation regarding back chaining and the premack principle. ;) :005: :clapping:
Of course you need motivation, which should be the treat/retrieve/praise to be received at the completion of the behavior chain. I'm only talking about back chaining a hold and retrieve through the use of positive reinforcement not negative reinforcement such as seen in the force fetch method. Honestly, if you have to use such harsh methods to get a gun dog to take something into his mouth, something it should be doing naturally, then it's probably going to end up a crap gun dog anyway or at least an obedient, but extremely unhappy one out on the field.
I also own a Jack Russell Terrier, and given his temperament and value system, he does require different motivational techniques versus my spaniel. Food and play are his main motivations in life and I did use back chaining with food as a reward in teaching him a proper hold and release command. He's a crap earth dog (can't dig to save his life), but he is a keen retriever so he does a bit of gun dog training with my spaniel just for the fun of it. So wholeheartedly agreed - horses for courses.
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A little update..........
Yesterday we did some training with the dummies, no treats this time! His wait is great, he'll wait until I send him out, I recall him with the whistle, while he comes back to me he does prance round with the dummy in his mouth showing me it! not quite coming to me! I did try recalling with a treat but this just made him drop the dummy. He does eventually come to me, very happy with himself and when I ask him to 'dead' he does drop it. I dont want to devalue the whistle by using it lots when he just walks round me (normal recall is great, straight back and a nice sit) so I also call in an excited voice, crouch down etc with my arms open. Is this the right thing to do though?! using 2 methods of recall i mean?
I think we're making progress! but, Im going to attach a long line to the dummy, dont want him to think me pulling the dummy is a game of chase, so, should i just let it trail, then when he gets near get hold of the longline and gently bring him in? (also using the whistle)
thanks for all the tips so far!
Going to add a few pics later if anyone wants to see the wee guy and his dummy!
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He sounds quite like norty little Henry was back in the day ph34r
I used to attach a line to the dummy too but only in case he dropped it into somewhere I couldn't reach it from. I'd be worried that if you pulled the line he might instinctively grip it harder and even tug, possibly giving him a hard mouth. I would certainly go with crouch down, squeaking at him and so on, so he is really happy to come to you. Then when he's with you, don;t worry about getting him to sit, just make a big fuss of him, rub his chest etc while he is holding the dummy to make this pleasant, then gently take it.
Now, to get Henry retrieving to hand I used the clicker - basically I only clicked at the moment the dummy hit my hand - even if I had to stick my hand right under his mouth to do so! He twigged that this was the way forwards, and then I could gradually extend the length of the hold by hiding my hands behind my back so he had to hold it to get the click. I would give a 'hold' command while doing this so he learnt that too. Then, when he had both these behaviours nailed, I started getting him to sit and deliver. It was a bit long-winded, but it did work - and no dummy spitting because he was working for the click, not directly for the treat. ;)
Hope this helps! He sounds a character, and those are the best dogs to have if you ask me :shades:
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There's nothing wrong with crouching down and calling the dog back to you, though my own dog responded far faster as a pup when I simply walked away from him as it fed his natural urge to chase after me. There's also nothing wrong with having two methods of recall. My own spaniel responds to the whistle, voice commands, and hand signals. The more the better, I think.
I'd attach the check cord to the dog, not to the dummy as this sounds like a recall problem. Let the cord drag and if he runs off tug the cord in a tapping motion to gently direct him back to you. You're not pulling the dog, you're just giving directional cues. I've never heard of anyone attaching a line to a dummy. I would think the tension a dog feels from the cord attached to the dummy would only further add to his problem of prematurely dropping the dummy.
Again, regarding the premature dropping of the dummy, it sounds as if you're luring the dog with the treat to come back, not rewarding the dog with a treat for coming back and delivering the dummy to hand. Using treats shouldn't be about luring and bribing, but rewarding to reinforce the behaviors you want.
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Now, to get Henry retrieving to hand I used the clicker - basically I only clicked at the moment the dummy hit my hand - even if I had to stick my hand right under his mouth to do so! He twigged that this was the way forwards, and then I could gradually extend the length of the hold by hiding my hands behind my back so he had to hold it to get the click. I would give a 'hold' command while doing this so he learnt that too. Then, when he had both these behaviours nailed, I started getting him to sit and deliver. It was a bit long-winded, but it did work - and no dummy spitting because he was working for the click, not directly for the treat. ;)
Ive had my two retrieving to hand for a while but only if my hand is outstretched. If i put my hand behind my back Dexter in particular just drops it rather than holding it and waiting for my hand (i admit in my own fault as I let him get away with this as a pup).
In an attempt to make it easier for him, Ive been holding my hand out to one side so that he has to find my hand with the intention that this would help him realise he needs to ensure he delivers the dummy to my hand. Then when my hand is hidden Id hope he realise that a retrieve that isnt to my hand is a failed retreive and hold it....
Anyone have any suggestions on whether there is a better way of going about it? I think Im going to have a go with the clicker so I can pin point the delivery to my hand. Will this be enough for a dog who started off thinking it was ok to drop it at our feet?
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I'd attach the check cord to the dog, not to the dummy as this sounds like a recall problem. Let the cord drag and if he runs off tug the cord in a tapping motion to gently direct him back to you. You're not pulling the dog, you're just giving directional cues. I've never heard of anyone attaching a line to a dummy. I would think the tension a dog feels from the cord attached to the dummy would only further add to his problem of prematurely dropping the dummy.
Well you have now! Somethign I had to do with one of mine as he soon learnt that he was on a line and was perfect, but a git off it. A line on the dummy stopped him legging it and no it didn't make him drop it or grip it any harder either.
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I'd attach the check cord to the dog, not to the dummy as this sounds like a recall problem. Let the cord drag and if he runs off tug the cord in a tapping motion to gently direct him back to you. You're not pulling the dog, you're just giving directional cues. I've never heard of anyone attaching a line to a dummy. I would think the tension a dog feels from the cord attached to the dummy would only further add to his problem of prematurely dropping the dummy.
Well you have now! Somethign I had to do with one of mine as he soon learnt that he was on a line and was perfect, but a git off it. A line on the dummy stopped him legging it and no it didn't make him drop it or grip it any harder either.
Interesting. Well, whatever works... But wouldn't it have worked the same way if you had attached the line to the dog? What made you decide to attach the line to the dummy vs the dog? I'm just asking out of curiosity since I've never before heard of someone doing this.
I know if I had done so with my own spaniel he would have dropped the dummy instantly the second he felt any tension during the initial stages of his retriever training. As a pup, even a slight brush of hand against the dummy would make him release it. It wouldn't be an issue now though as his "hold" is so good that he won't let go of something even if you're knocking it about. My JRT, on the other hand, probably would have thought a line attached to a dummy was a signal to a game of chew and tug. It's already been hard enough training my terrier to have a soft mouth when it's in his nature to worry and destroy everything.
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I think what this thread shows is there are a number of ways in which you can train this and if something works for the individual then great.
It is every dog trainers perogative to think the way they do things is the right way.
I'm always willing to learn infact I have learned rather a lot from Pauline (Riotous UK) including some rather big words that even she had trouble pronouncing!!! :005: :005:
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Not for working, but Honey's retrieve was taught with clicker/treat... ;) (We were learning it in an obedience class, but the principle is exactly the same!)
In exactly the way riotous-uk and hanandhen - we first taught a solid hand target, then taught a pick up the dummy, then a bring the dummy in to a hand target, then a release to hand. This made holding something in her mouth while touching my hand something very rewarding for Honey. :D
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Interesting. Well, whatever works... But wouldn't it have worked the same way if you had attached the line to the dog? What made you decide to attach the line to the dummy vs the dog? I'm just asking out of curiosity since I've never before heard of someone doing this.
As I said in my previous post, the dog knew when he was on a line and was foot perfect, off the line he legged it with the dummy. Hence the interim step of ahving the dummy on the line ot prevent him from doing that.
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Interesting. Well, whatever works... But wouldn't it have worked the same way if you had attached the line to the dog? What made you decide to attach the line to the dummy vs the dog? I'm just asking out of curiosity since I've never before heard of someone doing this.
As I said in my previous post, the dog knew when he was on a line and was foot perfect, off the line he legged it with the dummy. Hence the interim step of ahving the dummy on the line ot prevent him from doing that.
Yes, I understood perfectly that the dog would run off if he knew there wasn't a line attached. A lot of people come across this problem and use a check cord attached to the dog. My question is what was your specific reason for putting it on the dummy instead of the dog, as is the traditional use of a check cord? I'm not saying what isn't traditional isn't right, I'm just curious if there was a specific reason why you attached it to the dummy instead of to the actual dog? I'm only asking, because if there was something unusual to your specific case, maybe I could learn from it and also use this tactic if ever presented with a similar situation.
I agree with top barks regarding the evolution of this topic. I don't like to think that my method of training is the right way, just what works for my own dogs and the best I know so far, which is why it is imperative that people share and discuss things like this on open forums so that we can all benefit from each others' knowledge and experiences.
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It's very helpful in fact to get different styles because we all find at one point that something isn't working so that's why you seek out another method....the dogs all tick in a different way and it's getting a match to the way they tick that gets you the results.....Finn and Alfie are completely different and what worked for Finn was in no way going to completely work for Alfie who isn't a brave soldier :lol2: ;) He needed a very gentle and subtle approach :luv:
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As I said in my previous post, the dog knew when he was on a line and was foot perfect, off the line he legged it with the dummy. Hence the interim step of ahving the dummy on the line ot prevent him from doing that.
Yes, I understood perfectly that the dog would run off if he knew there wasn't a line attached. A lot of people come across this problem and use a check cord attached to the dog. My question is what was your specific reason for putting it on the dummy instead of the dog, as is the traditional use of a check cord? I'm not saying what isn't traditional isn't right, I'm just curious if there was a specific reason why you attached it to the dummy instead of to the actual dog? I'm only asking, because if there was something unusual to your specific case, maybe I could learn from it and also use this tactic if ever presented with a similar situation.
I'm not really sure what you are asking. The dog was foot perfect with a long line on and a git without it. I didnt see any other option than to put the line on the dummy..seemed obvious to me
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Ollie is getting better with the retrieve! I decided to do some trade training with 2 tennis balls, he'll now come straight back and give my the ball as he sees if he does that I have another one. Tried with a couple of plain dummies today, recalled him, and he brought it back when I recalled him, sat infront of me, still dropped the dummy but atleast hes coming back! He then sits to my right and waits for his next instruction! I love this little dog :luv: (when hes doing as hes asked!)
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Hi I'm doing something very simular, don't rush this. I'm re-training my dog beacause he spat his retrieve I've kept with the tennis balls and increased the time he holds them when he comes back praiseing him. Then I've got him to sit, lie down, walk to heel while holding. I then tried him with a old sock first time he retrieved it he spat it out, so walked off he soon picked it up and followed when he did told him to hold and praiseed him and success. Next time he didn't spit it out.
You need to get him use to holding different things.
I've been told by several pro gundog trainers the spainels are NOT natural retrievers so don't over do it a couple of retrieves a day and quiet while the going is good keep it short.
It's took me a good few weeks to re-train my dog to retrieve correctly and thats just in the house.
Good luck sound like some good progress :D
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I've been told by several pro gundog trainers the spainels are NOT natural retrievers so don't over do it a couple of retrieves a day and quiet while the going is good keep it short.
That might have been true a few years back but not really so much now. You'll always get the odd exception but from the right breeding most of them should have plenty of retrieving instinct nowadays. However I do agree with not overdoing it; Caoimhe is a very natural retriever and always has been but at that age I still only did 3 or 4 retrieves with her every other day or so.
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Ollie is a very natural retriever, his parents are both good working dogs from FTCHs. I'd say its a very natural instinct for him, saying that, I dont want to over do it with him, so will keep the retrieves for every couple of days 3-4 times at a time
thanks again for all the tips!
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I've been told by several pro gundog trainers the spainels are NOT natural retrievers so don't over do it a couple of retrieves a day and quiet while the going is good keep it short.
That might have been true a few years back but not really so much now. You'll always get the odd exception but from the right breeding most of them should have plenty of retrieving instinct nowadays. However I do agree with not overdoing it; Caoimhe is a very natural retriever and always has been but at that age I still only did 3 or 4 retrieves with her every other day or so.
Yes mine has a great retrieving instinct. Sorry what I meant was their more of a hunting dog/all rounder as opposed to a lab. The first trainer I saw told me to do loads of retrieves as I hadn't been doing enough but she had labs and wasn't a full on gundog trainer. It's only when I met a pro trainer that he told me not to do loads of retrieves and that you can easily spoil a spaniel by doing so as there more of a hunting dog. I've got to say mine does love retrieving but when his nose hit the floor and he's finding a dummy his tail's a blurr :005:
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Excellent news about Ollie :) Well done
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well here he is, carrying his dummy and doing a wonderful sit stay!
(http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af152/claireskyeollie/cocker%20meet%2004012011/dogsfleece/dogstraining093.jpg)
(http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af152/claireskyeollie/cocker%20meet%2004012011/dogsfleece/dogstraining088.jpg)
still a little too proud, but, we even had a go with the rabbit skin one and he did come back for a trade. A work in progress!
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Good for you & clever boy Ollie!! Woo hoo look at you go! You must be so pleased with his progress... :D
Daisy will retrieve the ball in the house perfectly but not outside?! :huh: I'm not too bothered though....although it does bother me when it is because she is too busy sniffing the place out for fox poo to roll in!! >:(
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Me having a sim ilar problem! You might want to train him the hold or carry trick or fetch. I reccomend the Heather hammonds dog tricks and training book. It has great tricks in, like take my socks off and phones. Reward him when he gives things to you. Happy training
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i was going to post up asking some of the same questions already asked on here, its been great reading through, my pup (now 2 years old) is more of a companion comes out running and out on the bike with me. he is very intelligent and sometime i do think he gets bored and would like to do lot more with him, he will do a retrieve but when coming back he'll run between my legs and leave the dummy just behind me. when we do take him out with the retrieve dummy he's not in the slightest bit interested in a treat and is over exited. just want to know if there is any good reading that will help.
i have just came back from scotland and got the see WCS called rosie training on her retrieves and was massivley impressed and would like to do the same sort of thing with murphy.
any books for net info to help with this would be great thank you.