CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Puppies => Topic started by: Lobo do Mar on August 07, 2019, 12:17:22 PM
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Hi,
I have posted in intro and puppy photos boards, now my first post :)
Salty is my 2nd dog (so I am no expert), my Wife has had 3 Cockers before as a child (they lived in the holiday house and outside only)
Of course, its about those needle sharp teeth combined with teething and a licence to use them on anything that moves :)
I was really worried, but this forum reassured me no end - thanks!
I'd really just like some confirmation that my plan is not a bad one.
Salty is adorable, loves cuddles, like to please us, is learning very quickly and is generally a great little doggy.
He can sit there and have my hand in his mouth and will chew a bit but not too hard
But he has biting furies when he just cant stop himself.
There seem to be patterns (early morning, later in evening).
His eyes show the whites and he is off.
He will also jump around at the ankles and its impossible to walk around.
I can pick him up and he stops
He is worse with my wife and daughter.
He does growl.
There are lots of 'levels' of hyper-bity-activity
He sleeps in our annex, with run of an enclosed yard within a bigger garden.
I think he is getting tired and/or overstimulated
So I have started to shut him in his room with a treat and a bone and a good doggy and cuddles to force him to take naps during the day
Also, walks in between, (2 times 20 mins per day)
We are all on holiday for August, so there are people around but he has been left on his own since young so is used to that.
Having a raw-hide bone at hand helps
I am thinking of getting some of those chews I saw referred to on here - 'Yackers' or the like? It'll have to be internet bought tho.
I am also training him to come back (currently clearing 'outer' big garden of things he can chew etc, but v. soon)
Ball throwing
Sitting on walks
etc
All good -he loves it
And lots of cuddles - we are besotted with the little b#gger
He has snapped on my wife's hand when she was trying to get a fruit stone out of his mouth, but that was badly done as she said she knows she pushed him too far (she grew up with Cockers here)
He does get territorial over things he has picked up, but I can open his mouth with finger and thumb and get pretty much out of his mouth if I am nice about it and let him know its mine - he might make a few grumbles, but I think he's being pretty accommodating about that.
My 9 year old daughter has taught him to sit and lay down, and she gets in there and picks him up and puts him in the cooler (out in the yard) when he starts snapping at her, so I'm not worried about that - although it seems obvious that he thinks she is the easy option for a step up the pecking order rung. next is my wife, I am top dog (at least in this :) ) all those nights of going out to him for poo breaks etc that I seemed to have ended up with were worth it :)
He was 4 weeks late going outside as the first vaccine done before we got him turned out not to be sufficient when we went to our vet expecting to get the second set. Although I did start taking for walks on the lead around the 'outer' garden from an early age - he is very good on the lead
Getting him outside on walks is helping a lot (pulls a bit but is learning as I become a bollard if he pulls too much (and I keep him very close on a short lead by my heel
He also loved a swim in the estuary
Socialising with other dogs on leads is fine (if very energetic :) )and he has had lots of children and adult visitors since we got him
There are lots of guard dogs left in empty houses around us so he sees a lot of aggressive behaviour as we walk around - I am minimising this by choice of route, but he is learning to be calm when we pass a snarling doberman etc
So, sorry for the ramble, not even sure if it is easy to answer this post actually, but time is up - daughter and hound are calling :)
Um grande abraço a todos!
(a big hearty hug to all)
Leigh
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I think we all know how those teeth feel and yes mornings and evenings are the witching hours. Use lots of long tuggy toys to teach play and prevent the biting before it starts. Pups are 24/7 for some time!
One plea ..... please don’t take things off him unless dangerous ..... and especially don’t force his mouth open unless a really dangerous situation or object. Doing that is actively training him to resource guard and could have terrible consequences further down the line. My OH did exactly that and was in hospital for a long time!!
Teach him to swap .... give him something of higher value than what he has picked up. There is lots of info online but some of it way out of date and disproved now.
Enjoy your pup 😀
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Salty sounds like a normal happy puppy, and yes, those little needles for teeth are infamous! Agree with Gerryjane, never forcibly remove anything from him, unless it is dangerous. You are storing up trouble. Swapping for something higher value, in this house a bit of chicken, sausage, or even a biscuit usually results in a quick and easy exchange.
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Sounds like a normal cocker! Plenty of sleep - 18 hours over the day I think is the puppy quota! That will help him to be less growly. Please don't give raw hide chews. They can swell up inside the body and cause a blockage. There are lots of other chews around although none last as long as raw hide.
I agree with others about not taking things from the mouth, definitely do a swop for a tasty treat, although you'll find it becomes a bit of a game for them.... sock...treat..... slipper..... treat! :005:
It is a good idea to teach them to let you open their mouths so you can check their teeth and gums, I taught it as part of the grooming regime. Gently open the mouth, inspect then reward.
Enjoy!
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If you google Chirag Patel teaching DROP there’s a great video on teaching a good drop. He is a well known and respected trainer. We started this early just dropping bits of chicken around to teach the concept and at 20 weeks he was even dropping dead mice kindly left on the patio by the cat ..... cat’s revenge for us getting a pup :lol2:
It takes time but really worth it. Tug games are also useful for teaching a thank you and drop.
Hope this might be helpful.
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Thanks,
Will stop the taking out of his mouth then and try the swap.
But 95% of the time its taking nesperas (a small tree fruit with big pips/stone) that he picks up from the garden that i am worried that he will choke on. But he seems to know how to get the stone out and then break it up and eat the insides. We do try to keep them cleaned up but 100% efficiency is not poss.
Will also substitute rawhide chews
Regular time out naps with praise and a treat are working a .... treat
Thanks again
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I’ve just watched that video. It’s genius!!
I have been going about it all the wrong way with Bella. When she would get something in her mouth I would try and get it out or she would think it’s a game and just run away.
It’s a great recommendation.
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video looks great,thanks
I need to get more tug toys too
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Hi,
Salty is now 5 months
He is getting to be a bit more of a handful, so am asking for advice / assurance :)
First the good stuff:
He loves cuddles and is very affectionate
He is pretty good on the lead on the walks, pulls a bit but getting better, always sits to cross road etc.
He can sit when commanded and do what he is told when in the right mood ...
I can touch his paws, put my fingers in his mouth etc etc and he is fine. Even grooming is getting better :)
Out on walks or to new places and with new people he is an absolute darling - sometimes too jumpy, but not like with us at home ...
etc etc, there are loads of good things.
Next...
I was always top dog and he was trying his luck more with my wife and 9 yr old daughter, however now he is pushing against me too, and the play/attention biting is getting more and he wont stop or come close enough when commanded for me to take him and put him in the cooler (his annex bedroom for a nap / time-out).
*So, this is the main point of the post - he has become uncontrollable when he gets in his bitey mood, and I cant grab him to take control.
I have to admit that today when he was particularly hurting me I grabbed him by the scruff of the neck in desperation / red mist - I still feel very guilty and am sure that this is the WRONG thing to do generally and in terms of training him.
*So here is my dilemma - I am in the middle of the patio (or in the house) and he is jumping in and out whilst biting my calves (OUCH!!! :) ))
If I run for and vault over the gate I am not being in control and showing who is the leader.
If I stay still he will devour me and my shorts :)
If I (try to) grab him it becomes an aggressive power struggle game that I see leading to disaster.
If I stand there saying 'Ouwwww!' like another dog would (I read it in a book) he just laughs 'Mwuuuhhahaha!' and really knows he has got me and goes in even harder.
*What should I be doing - specifically to get a hold of him, and generally at this stage?
I thought of a 'house line' but if I leave this on him he will chew it to bits
I think the increase in this biting is perhaps due to two things; the teething &/or his age/trying his luck ?
I am pretty sure the biting is for attention
He can mouth on my hand when having a cuddle (softly enough with some nips as his teething gets him)
The biting (as opposed to mouthing) seems to be a mix of 'I'm here' together with jockying for position.
I am sure Salty is not a timid dog, and is pretty headstrong and would like to be (more) dominant (although he still knows how to hide behind my legs :) )
We had a couple of 'incidents' when I took him off the sofa (he had been trying to assert his 'right' to go on sofa for a while) - he growled and aggressively snapped at me - this was a shock as it had never really happened like this with me
We have stopped taking things from his mouth, I am using the swap /Drop technique from this lovely forums advice and its much better.
There are a lot of aggressive holiday home guard dogs around here (its Portugal...), so I try to set the route to minimise these encounters, and praise him for remaining calm.
I am still trying to force him to nap regularly in his Annex. The problem is that he is also put there as a penance for biting and he is spending more and more time there, or in his yard, and less time in the house which I thin could be counterproductive
I try to play with him with ball etc, but this is getting harder/less appealing due to the biting
2 walks of 20 mins a day on the lead on the roads and on a 5m extendable lead in the forest (I am not ready to trust him off the lead yet, one step at a time)
Could I give him more exercise yet?
Getting his lead clipped on his collar is a game with biting, but its getting more difficult/aggressive - I think I might have to go back to giving him a treat as I put it on
He is very erratic with eating. Sometimes he eats it all, sometimes he barely touches it. If I don't stand there with him he will not eat - he has been like this since we got him at 9 weeks. However, if I shut him in his bedroom with the food then he mostly eats it - but I dont want feeding to become associated with isolation/leaving/punishment. I have to say that I try to feed him breakfast, lunch and Dinner times - but need to be more set on times.
I'm sorry for the somewhat chaotic post (I put *'s by the main thrust of the post's questions), but it is a bit of a reflection of my state of mind on this conundrum at the moment!
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Hi I will reply in more detail later as we are going out but just wanted to say first of all this is normal puppy behaviour and yes it is hard work!! He is not trying to dominate you or be top dog, that’s not how dogs work and that theory is about 15 years out of date and disproved :lol2:
Puppies explore with their mouths and their teeth are sharp, running away tells them you want to play and often so does yelling or ouching if they bite ..... game on from their point of view. :D
Long tug toys everywhere at all times to teach him what he is allowed to bite. If it gets too much scatter some kibble on the floor for him to find whilst you move away. Play from the other side of a baby gate if it gets too much .... I did this in the evenings with Toby.
Bully sticks and yakers are good chews.
Moving him off the sofa is a bit like taking things away .... teach him an OFF using rewards not confrontation otherwise he could begin guarding spaces from the horrid humans who take his stuff :lol2: :lol2:
We use all Toby’s food allowance for training and rewards. We use tastier rewards if it’s something hard like being around dogs or busier places. Think of it as wages ..... would you work for nothing?? The harder the work the higher the pay needed.
There is a brilliant Facebook group called Dog Training Advice and Support DTAS. It has loads of up to date info on science based training written by experts.
I do hope that helps ..... it will get better but he will also become a teenager like ours who is now nearly seven months and can’t settle down at bedtime >:D
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Thanks,
That does help - some stuff to try there - especially the kibble strewing, and will try the alternative sofa strategy, although since our altercations he hasn't tried to get up there again, yet!
I cant find Yakers for a reasonable price down here unfortunately.
Bully sticks - I remember them smelling real bad - like a bull's pizzle in fact - from my previous dog, do the odourless ones not smell / any specific website or brand to look for?
We had a great day, walk in the morning, then a meander around the garden outside his walled patios with him on his long lead, him coming back when called, sitting on the step together with a cuppa watching the word go past
Naps in the afternoon and he let me get most of the burrs out of his coat
Then this evening he gets all bitey again. So I took him out on a walk and he was very well behaved on the lead
But then when we got back home and into his patio and I let him off the lead he started jumping at my calves biting again.
I had a rope tug toy ready which worked for a few paces but then he was back on the calves.
I Decided to experiment and to stand still and try to ignore him (teeth gritted) but he just bit harder and actually punctured my leg a bit with one of his remaining three syringe-like canines.
At this he was ushered smartly but calmly to his bedroom by his collar (with great restraint on my part, if I do say so myself :) ) and shut in there for a few minutes. When I went back in he was lying on the floor looking sheepish (although that could be in my head), so I let him out into the patio again and I beat a measured, controlled and nonchalant retreat out of the patio and over the gate (trying to look far more confident than my bare calves were feeling).
That's it for tonight, he has been put to bed for the night and is lying on the patio door step now, where he usually sleeps (despite having his own bed in the annex) - I dont blame him its a lovely clear night and still over 20 C.
How to I teach him that a boring rope tug toy is tastier than my legs :) ?
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Sounds like a pup for sure.
Z is almost six months now and lots of ups and downs along the way. There is so much I could say about all you are going through...we have all gone through it to various degrees.
Try and keep your behaviour calm and be consistent with all that you do. A pup will learn what off and no mean when said calmly. We don’t need to use a growling stern voice...it is hard sometimes for sure. I want to keep that stern voice for when it’s really needed.
One thing we used that really helped with Z was using a release phrase. We use it all the time. Coming out of crate, waiting by closed door/gate, meal time, before play, after grooming, release from placeboard, free to do what he wants etc. It sometimes means things takes longer to do though!
Most importantly just have a laugh with pup. Create that bond so those spaniel eyes are all for you!
That being said Z is becoming adolescent so I suspect we will the stripping it all back down soon :005:
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Agree with Paul :D
It is hard at times and almost feels personal when they are in biting mode. Have to keep remembering that it is normal puppy stuff and it will pass. When the adult teeth come in at least the needles have gone.
I agree bully sticks can smell horrible ..... I used Best Bully Sticks which didn’t smell and ordered from Amazon in the past for our retriever but they are American and are now so expensive I have to order from Maltbys also through Amazon. I have to put up with the smell as it keeps him busy chewing when needed. I don’t know if Paul might have another recommendation??
I avoid using anything that might originate in China.
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this all takes me back to when my first cocker Ben was a pup - if I am honest he was vile and completely shattered my expectations of what owning a dog would be, I was convinced I had been sold a velociraptor by mistake :005: I didn't know about COL then and at that point 'dominance theory' was at its height so everyone told me he was trying to be pack leader. We made mistakes that I know impacted on his behaviour for the next 14 years :'(
To be honest once we realised he was just a clever normal cocker pup who needed to use his brain things changed. we used to do lots of brain games, he had to use his nose to find most of his meals as it was scattered round the house, he quickly hammered through all the toys on the market and we invented games for his clever little brain. For example start with two pots put a biscuit under one of them swop them round a few times and then they have to learn to touch with either nose or paw the right one to get the treat. Ben got up to having 4 pots moving/swopping quickly and he nearly always got it right. We found as soon as he used his brain for 30 mins or so he was shattered and sleepy and very cuddly - the perfect pup. Once he stopped biting he was a joy.
We also changed our way of thinking initially we had the rule that he wasn't allowed on the furniture, and there would be a battle to get him off. However someone said to me just because you can 'make' him do it it doesn't mean that's the only way. We taught the command off and on with a treat reward. So he would jump up or down on command. it stopped being a battle, to be honest after about a year we just gave in and decided we loved having him up on the settee and cuddling.
Ben became just the best boy ever but it was a steep learning curve, from what I know now cockers are!! I would never have another breed now the love laughs and fun they bring far outweigh the cockerdile start :luv: Looking forward to haring how Salty gets on
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Thanks,
Salty and I have bonded very strongly, no worries there, and I know he won't be like this forever (and he already isn't bitey always, it just switches on and off), its just I am not experienced enough to know the right way to approach this, so this forum is gold-dust in that respect - thanks!
The shame is that at the moment he is usually outside since as soon as he comes in he is at our legs.
Our house has no doors downstairs so shutting him in a room inside is not an option
I wonder if we should get a pen or something for inside so he can be in the cooler but near us?
I worry that we are just pushing him outside and making things worse
We let him in the house this morning when we all got up (7am) and he was as ever hyper excited to see us, we try to be calm but it eventually turned from a licking frenzy to a bitey frenzy.
But as soon as I put his lead on (get him to sit, give him a small treat and pop it on) he instantly transformed back into Dr Jeckyll, then no pulling on walk (actually he sat down a couple of times to try to make me wait, as if mimicking me when I stop when he pulls too much :)) and generally great behaviour, no biting me or even the lead
Keeping calm of mind and voice is my main aim and I'm going to do some structured training- its all been a bit ad-hoc up till now
He is very bad at jumping up, which I have never been able to stop
We also need more chews and more brain games
And I will change my behaviour model away from a 'dominance theory' based one
I'm supposed to be on holiday :lol2:
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Is Salty motivated by food? Its much easier if they are, we did clicker training with Ben and he loved that as well. When he came running towards us all bitey we could distract by turning it into a game with some training commands all given in quick succession so he has to concentrate eg sit, down, spin, stand, give paw - then a big praise and a treat. It distracted him from the biting and made it into a game and then he was moved on quite quickly.
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With jumping up we use standing on lead technique.
I greeting people lead is on and as they approach a foot is placed on lead so pup cannot jump up. Soon learns not to jump up at people and how to greet them correctly.
With sofa we have a light house lead on if he is being jumpy. Again a foot on lead stops him jumping up. To start off with foot was firmly planted on lead so he learnt to settle.
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Hi- just wanted to chime in. I haven't read every single post so apologies if I'm repeating anything.
Just wanted to say-sounds just like mine at that age. You put heaps of time and effort in and think you're getting somewhere then next thing you know, you look round and think you've got a vicious dog!
We also had the sofa snapping arguments and feeling like we were prey in our own home. Not nice.
Anyway, firstly some reassurance. our dog is lovely now. Still has her own ideas sometimes but is generally fine. Well socialised and especially good with children.( I made a point of standing outside schools at kick out time when she was a pup). Like a weirdo.
If ours was attacking us and we couldn't remove her, we would remove ourselves. They don't like to be separated from their family. That worked for us,but it did take time.
Otherwise put her in time out. The only thing with that is, you can cause some association with being naughty and the dog bed. Our dog spent so many minutes in her pen (which is where her bed was) for being naughty that once we realised she wasn't getting timed out any more we actually relocated her bed to another area- like you're a good girl now, we don't need it.
Another thing I recommend Is being quiet. Naturally when your dog is attacking you you are going 'get off you little ****!!' But if you are quiet, there is nothing to rile up the dog and you're not both barking!
We couldn't do much at all with ours til she was one and she didn't stop attacking us til she was 18 months. She is still very prey driven if you are a bird, but she is exceptionally good with people. Absolutely loves them and will ignore their dog to go and collect her cuddle from the Human. Everyone who meets her falls in love instantly and no-one believes what she was like. To be honest, she was approaching two before I believed she was listening to a word I said, but it was obviously all going in- she just wasn't showing me that it had!
Yours is probably just really clever. The naughty ones are but stick with it-it'll probably be a really good dog in time. You 've just got to do what you can and trudge through the bad bit. It will get better!
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Hi, and thanks again.
We are making progress:
Sofa 'OFF' is now a game all fine :)
Swap or drop for getting him to let go of things - or just 'that's mine' and light fingers to remove it if it is actually mine (never any growling or complaints) :)
We are all trying very hard not to raise voices and be calm, seems to be working :)
I have cleared the 'outer' 1000 m^2 garden (as opposed to his 'inner' patios) and we have let him run around there and practised recall, sit, down, and now moving onto stay - all going great with the help of small bits of treat as rewards - actually, he susses out what will come next and rushes off to do it before we open our mouths if we don't mix up the order a bit :)
I take him for a 25 min walk on the short lead around the streets in the morning and 25 mins on the long 5m extendable lead in the forest in the afternoon - he is excellently behaved on the lead :)
But, he still has episodes where he is going for us (there is no other way to put it).
I have been observing him during these, and:
With me he is barking and growling and snapping at me, darting in and out.
If I didn't know him I would be terrified, but if I just put my hands down he will launch and snap at them in what appears to be a vicious way, but there is very little bite force - similarly on my legs (although skin puncture and bleeding occurs most times due to tiny teeth).
He is also with his head down low, often with his tail wagging.
Sometimes this is interspersed with tail-between-the-legs mad circular Wall-Of-Death type Zoomies (outside)
To me, he seems to be asking for attention, specifically for a rough play-fight.
If I can get him and pick him up in a cuddle he is all licks and stops immediately.
If we are inside I try to calmly remove him to outside
If we are outside I try to calmly remove myself.
With my (psychologist) wife its similar, she just said she thought he was much better, but that he was definitely 'trying his luck and pushing boundaries'.
With my daughter, he is the best with her in training, but when he goes snappy at her she understandable flinches away and isn't always totally calm (she is only 9, but is doing really well) and so he pushes it more, until we come in as back up.
We are using time outs in his patio (when he immediately starts crying but soon stops), or in his bedroom for forced naps
He is loosing his teeth - only lower canines now and others further back missing.
I am hoping that his adult ones don't come through
Only joking.
I bought a few tug toys but he shows very little interest in these
Am buying all manner of chews - they seem to keep him happy but he has a very short attention span in terms of needing new types .....
still trying to find yakers or bully sticks here, he did like the veggie Cerea toothbrushes but seems to have gone off them.
Actually, I think his mouth could be a bit too sore and that's why he prefers biting us softer Humans :)
In terms of food, he is still very bad at eating regularly and needs coercion / being shut in his bedroom to finish his meals without wandering off looking for something more interesting to do.
EDIT: from the 'Teething' Section of http://www.cockersonline.co.uk/puppy.htm: "Puppies may also go off their usual food around this time (soaking the food to soften it can sometimes help if this happens) " I have been soaking the food and this has helped :)
I have to say, this is a lot, lot, lot harder than my previous puppy, and my Wife's previous Cockers were never anything like this apparently, but we all have a very strong bond with the little B*gger :)
So, anything I should be changing?
I think I am already pushing at the limit in terms of exercise?
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Ooh just one other thing. Ours even now occasionally (sometimes after eating-and certain foods do it, or if she's got really excited and hasn't quite got it out of her system)...gets the sudden aggressive outburst. You know like when they get the zoomies-ours sometimes does that when she's wet. Anyway, you can usually see it in their eyes ...that ' I really need to kill something' look. ph34r Ours has got a nice heavy teddy. If she gets funny we just give her that and she'll shake it to death until she gets it out of her system- it's that or the cusions so we direct her to the 'allowed victim'!- that usually does the trick and satisfies her urge to attack. After a minute she gets over it and is back to cuddly pooch.
They are weird dogs! :lol:
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Hi,
Had a good day today again, lots of training in the garden, he was bounding around really happy to go between my daughter and I as we called him, sitting, laying down, even staying (for a bit ...)
Gave him some time out sleep time too.
Then this evening, I took him out into the garden again and he refused to listen or come back at all, even when enticed with treats.
Then, back in the house he had a bitey attack and actually got very aggressive with me with bared teeth and growling and then especially with my wife; this time there was definite gums rolled right back to show teeth, very aggressive growling and lunging / writhing / spittle as my wife tried to pick him up - although the biting bit was not hard.
I grabbed him around the middle as softly as I could (have to be quick - or he thinks my hands are a great game to bite) and calmly took him to his room
Actually, I'd like not to have to grab him, but don't really think I have any choice, if I try to calmly remove myself I get very bitten on the way out, and don't think making a run for it sends a good signal.
Maybe I am wrong.
But when he is like this there is no question of him taking any notice of any commands or treats, or toys or anything else.
Half an hour latter, went to him and he was all licks and tail wagging, but after 5 mins had me pinned down in the yard - although not so aggressive this time, and mostly just with lunges and that horrible high pitched barking.
So, I grabbed him and put him to bed in his room, calmly but with disappointment.
So, now I am really worried about this aggression bit - the real baring of the teeth - this isn't like play biting at all - should I be worried, or is this 'normal' too?
I am getting a bit worried that this is snowballing and I am blinding myself to the obvious as it gets incrementally worse, and I just accept each step downwards until we are at a point that I would never had contemplated getting into had I know where it was going at the beginning of our plan to welcome a dog into our family
Should I get an outside opinion?
Or is the problem with us?
Also, how will I be able to trust him when he is older?
Obviously we are a bit sad right now - hopefully tomorrow will bring a brighter hope
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Hi again. I absolutely feel your pain. I apologise for the upcoming essay.
Seriously,this is exactly what Inca was like. The behaviour is identical.
I really did think 'oh my God-we have a vicious dog'.
I think it's not that they are vicious dogs and I am no expert but I do think there seem to be 3 levels of cocker spaniel. I have interviewed literally about 100 people with cockers. There seems to be:
1) The really docile teddy bears (usually the show type);
2) The more common type of working cocker- high energy, intelligent, busy busy but generally quite biddable and reasonably easy to train;
3) The type we've got- a rarer type from what I can gather. Possibly in our case, the totally working lineage has not helped. Our ones ancestors were either working or shut up. They were not pets. Our one doesn't do that 'merry cocker' thing- where they just pad backwards and forwards looking up at you wagging their tail. She's a thinker. First and foremost, a hunter.
Unfortunately, ours will catch and kill birds if given the chance. It's an urge so deep I haven't been able able to even communicate with her if she is accidentally given the opportunity (which I try to avoid of course). We've had to securely fence our chickens.
I think this type also display guarding behaviours. Ours does, although it's ok-it's manageable.
Ours displayed exactly the behaviour yours is at the moment. It went on for months and was exhausting. Even now, given the right circumstances (overexcitement/ over tired/wrong food) she will start getting a bit silly but now a stern word and a quick timeout and she remembers how to behave.
I really am no expert and you may want to consult one (let me know what they say if you do!!!) We thought about it but I honestly thought it was a bit pointless because they would have to see the actual behaviour which would be so hard to time, and I think it would be really hard to make a judgement on such a jeckyll and Hyde dog. (Get that feeling?).
I can give you an opinion though. I think these are just top end of feisty dogs and as such need a slightly different approach from the norm. Ours is so feisty she just didn't give a ****.
Like it seems with yours-ours WANTED a fight!! If you see her bashing through the undergrowth after a bird, you can see how ideas like squirting a little bit of water at her or something is going to have no affect on such a bullish dog.
I am not suggesting for a moment that you hit your dog or anything but I think you do need to get tough on the very worst of the behaviour as it will possibly get worse before it gets better.
Ours started like yours and progressed to actually properly going for me if I wanted her to get off something. She only did this a few times and the first time I actually felt quite scared. I had to remove myself for a good think.
I thought to myself..it's only a little dog. It's sort it out or get rid of it?!!! Option 2 wasn't going to end well was it, so I had to man up.
We used a containment area (a 'playpen' about 6'x3').
Sure enough she did it again. I had already planned my response-no messing-I used an immediate loud booming voice of disapproval which startled her just long enough for my left hand to grasp the back of her collar so she couldn't bite me, and scooped her up and tucked her body under my right arm. Dumped her in the enclosure with further words of disgust, left the room and slammed the door.
For regular silliness she would be excluded for a minute but for this major offence I left her in silence for 15.
I know you shouldn't have to do this, my other dog never behaved like this blahblahblah- I had to get over all that and realise it is what it is- I have to deal with it.
It's all very depressing at the time and I do know why you feel like you may have a 'wrongun' and maybe we both do?!
BUT... :D
Ours is just two. I let her play with our two year old granddaughter. I watch but do not feel worried. She can take a tennis ball (most prized thing in Inca's world) out of her mouth. So can any other child.
We can leave her at home and she just shuts down when we're not there. She loves people-always up for a cuddle. She's very loyal and very brave. She 'viciously' saw off an enormous Staffie cross that came bounding towards our granddaughter the other day, with zero concern for her own safety. I don't think I will ever 'be attacked by another dog!
I still think she is a complicated character and is still wilful and naughty sometimes but I also get comments all the time on how good and especially how sweet she us (hahaha!).
My top tips would be:
-Train by repetition and habit forming-that seems to work best.
-New bad behaviours are often worst when they first appear. Try not to panic- make a plan and stick to it- the behaviour will probably moderate itself too.
-I'm not sure about all the dominance theories and you definitely want to avoid falling out with your dog if you can help it BUT I think these ones do need firm leadership or they'll run for office themselves! Be in charge!
I'm sorry for the essay but I know how it feels to have a difficult dog when everyone else is like 'Oh yeah-mines good as gold-no trouble' and 'ooh no-mine never did that'. It is disappointing but it WILL get better as long as you stay in control of the situation!
;)
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Thanks Digger,
That 'essay' is a great help - exactly the support I was reaching out for thanks :)
I think Salty fits all 3 of your categories, depending on mood/hour/us/moon phase etc ;)
So, what I did yesterday was researched the fall of dominance theory (unrelated Zoo wolves (Rudolph Schenkel, 1930s) vs Wild family unit wolves (David Mech, 2000), and the lack of overlap between wolf and dog behaviour anyway), and it all makes more sense to my brain now.
Then I took him to two vets to see if all was OK physically - all good (although both vets said he was becoming too dominant ;) )
He growled at both vets a bit but I held him and he was fine, and as my 9 year old daughter chimed in, 'I would growl too if someone put a thermometer up my bum' :005:
Then, I read a bit about house-lines and trail-lines and made one up (2m, old bit of 6mm PE rope from the boat).
THAT made THE difference :D :D :D :D :D :D
Now he starts to bite at calves (its definitely asking for attention / play behaviour - I consulted the 'I speak dog' site and others), BUT as soon as he does I can control him without the escalation into a circle of play, try to catch, nip, me getting peed off, him getting out of control etc etc - he just can easily understand that its not acceptable and accepts the fact that he must stop. Like a different dog :D :D :D :D
Also, I have been taking him out on slightly longer leisurely walks in the sandy forest (varying the route each time) and he is far more satisfied (actually, where does the 5 minute per month age rule come from? I am using it as a rule of thumb. I have read that this overexercising problem comes from a (one) study on Great Danes using steps - can anyone educate me better?).
I like using the extendable line - he knows his limits (physically at the end of line) and generally is learning to stay within this and usually comes back when called - loads of rewards and I can use a very small gentle tug reminder when he is distracted
I also have booked a session with a dog(i.e. owner) trainer for Tues. Now I am not sure if we need it any more but will go anyway.
We also bought him a basket to substitute his rug in the living room. Lots of treats in it as it was unveiled to him and we trained him to do 'ON' and 'OFF' on it. Actually we said 'ON' and 'OFF' to him 3 times before he was anticipating the next command before we could say it :)
His mouth must be so sore due to teething as he is off food and even chews - I will try to get a rubber toy for him to chew - c.f. the French Sofie giraffe for kids that we had for our daughter(but will get something sturdier). I asked my daughter if she would donate a cuddly toy, but got a flat refusal :) )
So, panic over and I hope and think that we are all now back on the right track
Thanks again
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Ahh that's great. ;)
If you do see a behaviourist- I'd say make sure they have experience with cockers.
-I think everyone on here would agree that they're not like any other dog!
Yours is still a baby and if he is like ours there will be new challenges ahead.
We had our previous dog for 15 years and never did any reading- I've never done so MUCH dog related research since having this one-it's quite interesting really!!
Anyway, sounds like youre on top of things-well done you!
Keep the faith-and stay in charge of your little monster-. onward and upward!!
Best wishes from sunny Suffolk-with our little monster snoozing on the sofa. >:D
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Fancy calling him Salty AKA the Piranha-Cockerdile when all the little darling is ......da da da a Portuguese man of war :005:
sorry couldn't resist.....certainly think the teething hasn't helped. Glad he is seeing someone next week....seems Salty is doing fine it is his humans who aren't.
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Thanks,
So, Salty is still behaving very well, biting is now not a problem.
I think that its because of:
1. Most important - 6 foot house line. This stopped the 'chase-lung-grab-avoidance cycle' and handed control back to us. Salty responded excellently. He might try an over-excited nip but stops immediately when pulled away by line. If he doesn't have it on he can still dance around and get a bit feisty but he is better and stops immediately when line put on. I am very happy with this 'find' :) It also helps to enforce lots of other stuff, e.g. he is now great with 'OFF' and is generally back to sweet little dog mode in pretty much all respects
2. Yakkers. I got 3 medium ones from Zooplus.pt. They are excellent, should last forever, as long as he doesn't loose his current love of them. I would say I guessed right with the medium size
3. More exercise. He is really enjoying exploring the forest. I dont push him too hard, but do take him for 40 mins twice a day (in cooler parts of day). I am really into using the retractable 5m lead, he has learnt to stay in the 5m radius, and returns on 'HERE' unless sniffing something especially rank (to me :) ) when a very sligth soft tug brings him back
4. I am reading John Bradshaw's 'In defence of dogs' (I love it, I am a Sci/Eng research geek so love the style). I am still not very good at training a dog (Salty and I are learning together :) ) but at least I have a better idea of what is going on.
5. Teething is still going on but I think his mouth is not so sore now. He has a funny mix of huge adult teeth and teeny weeny milk ones :005:
Probably other reasons but those are my thoughts on our situation with our dog.
Hopefully onwards and ever upwards from now on (famous last words :005:)
@Digger- Deepest Darkest Suffolk eh? I am from Tendring peninsular (nr. Brightlingsea) and really miss the Essex / Suffolk border country (us people from the Essex side always say the Essex/Suffolk border ;) ) and the East Coast Rivers - its so beautiful there.
@Jaysmumagain - In the end I skipped the trainer meeting as all is now going very well. Actually, I do remember him saying that it was lucky that Salty wasnt a golden colour as these were the worst. I thought that this colour-behaviour link had been disproved? He said it was from breeding mistakes here in Portugal; I guess the gene pool / breeding is isolated from country to country? I am just asking as I am curious - Salty is ours and he is as he is :)
I don't know about 'Man-O-War', although I have called him some other Portuguese names that I won't translate here :)
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Really pleased that things are improving. The puppy stage is hard work. Do look into brain games as well as physical exercise particularly as Salty moves through the teenage phase. There are lots of ideas on the internet and scentwork/nosework is also great for spaniels. We did a Heelwork to music activity at the weekend .... it was just a taster as walking to heel is still work in progress. Toby joined in quite well and although there was limited physical activity he slept all the way home, woke up to eat and then slept all evening. He was still quiet the next day :D his little brain was shattered!
Incidentally Toby is golden and he is a sweetheart .... unlike our difficult working retriever. Dog training is an unregulated industry and it is easy to find trainers using methods and beliefs that are scientifically disproved and years out of date.
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Foreigner! We're from the Suffolk/Essex border. :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: (sudbury ;))
I can confirm that Brightlingsea is still alive and kicking-I was there a while ago-went to see a gun dog guy about a naughty little cocker spaniel!!!
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Hello!
So, just an update, after some time, but really to add to the info here with my personal experience with my specific cocker
Salty is now 'matured' in his madness now that he is 10 months old :lol:
He still has an annoying habit of nipping us when he wants our attention, but its with front paws down and definitely not aggressive
He loves running around the house barking, retrieving his 'Mr McNugget' fluffy (now faceless) chicken, hiding under the sofa after nipping my wife on the bum etc etc
He also loves, absolutely loves, lying on his back on my lap having his tummy scratched where he very quickly starts snoring (literally after 2 mins sometimes)
He has forgotten how to sit etc, but is re-learning
When he gets out of hand, the house line is of great use to lead him out of the house to go to his 'cooler' (doghouse) outside.
Pulling on the lead stopped instantly with a Halti harness attached at front (will get a V one now after reading other thread) The Halti is too loose at the front too, but the difference was amazing
He was on Yakkers until they only lasted a day and they are expensive to get down here in PT. Now he has rawhide ones - I know in a perfect world they are to be avoided but in the balance its worth it with Salty - he only gnaws tiny bits off and I only get no additives Cowhide ones and he doesn't chew them all day, and they are 3 Euros for a huge one here. Also, in comparison to the other stuff he hoovers down off the floor (see beach stuff below) its pretty benign.
So he is an absolute darling/devil >:D :angel: he is not at all a model well-behaved dog, and we all absolutely love him!
The only thing he has done a couple of times is actually bite my hand pretty hard in a rage. Once was when he had something sharp and metal in his mouth and I stupidly ignored his growls after getting frustrated with trying to swap for a treat and tried to pull it out. The other time was when he was in his kennel and I reached in to stroke him without knowing that he had a stolen tissue in there. My fault both times, together with my previous failing in always taking things from him with out swapping for a treat when he was young. But, there is no textbook dog or owner I guess.
This was shortly after he was castrated, he's much better now - maybe hormone swings before equilibrium was reached? We also took him for a haircut a week or so after the castration, due to dreadlocks (we tried and failed to groom the piranha) and the lady had to give him a crew-cut which was a shock to all, but now its a tiny bit longer it has become our preference. He obviously didnt like that experience either, as when we asked the lady if he behaved well she said 'more or less .....'. He was probably thinking 'what are they going to cut off next?' Anyway, I feel the castration did not calm him down one iota but removed the aggressive tinge to him that he was developing, but it could also be age or something else.
I take him to the beach for a run, but keep him on a long 5m lead - letting him off has been another of my failings in that I never have let him off the lead. I am sure he would come back (after a bit of fun and games ....) but I know he will run up to people and either jump all over them to play, or keep his distance but bark at them if he finds something 'funny' about them - both of which from the people who dont know him's point of view would be scary. Also, even on the lead he manages to scoff literally 10's of dead crabs, seaweed, shells, etc etc and then has a dicky tummy for days - I am thinking of a muzzle for that, but not sure - another problem to be solved, ho-hum. At the moment taking him to the forest is a no-no due to the processionary pine caterpillars (if you are going to take your dog to south Europe (inc France) be sure to read up on these things as they can kill dogs)
So, that's where we are at the moment, :lol:
I found the internet absolutely littered with cries for help from Cocker owners, my favourite started out, 'I would imagine that living with Fiona, my 20 month old ECS, is the equivalent of what living with a monkey would be like. ' :lol:
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Hi again. Glad everything's ok out there.
Just wanted to say sounds like salty is bit of a guarder, so my advice on that one is keep tidy so he can't get stuff and if he does get stuff, ignore it if at all possible.
Inca is now 2.5 and really starting to grow up in the last couple of months. She is an incredibly affectionate and loyal dog as I'm sure salty is.
I do think though that if ours didn't have the masses of off lead exercise that she does, she would be more likely to be frustrated and maybe nippy. Is there nowhere you feel you can let salty off the lead? He may well jump up to say hello to people but he's got to learn..and have some freedom!!
Ours is out for over an hour every morning. It's all off lead, ball games, finding stuff in the woods, running around with other dogs-all normal stuff but really important for her mental well being as well as physically being able to reach top speed and blast some energy out of her system. After her morning walk she pretty much just snoozes until the (slightly shorter) afternoon walk. I bet if salty could zoom off some energy off lead he'd be much less likely to be a pain in between.
I always reckon that it's better to apologise to someone for your dog jumping up in the early days than to have a dog that you can't let off. He knows you are his provider of all things good-it's unlikely he wouldn't come back.
A good tip for recall training is Pippa Mattinsons method of conditioning. It worked for us. I always have a pocket full of homemade liver cake. You could get Anything back with that!! .
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Hi Digger,
Definitely a guarder, but he's getting there - he pretty much gives stuff back to me now when I tell him 'that's mine'. I also have been giving a small puff on his nose to help things along. If he really doesn't want to give it back and its dangerous / valuable then I swap with treat, but trying to avoid reinforcing stealing things with being given treats :lol:
"Inca is now 2.5 and really starting to grow up in the last couple of months" - two and a half!!!! Are you trying to make me feel better?!?! ;)
We had a friend visiting from UK with his dog Harry who always comes back last weekend, and I took the opportunity to let Salty off of the lead on the beach with him - he came back and didn't hassle anyone too much, but mostly because Harry came back.
There were a couple of dogs roaming around on their own, probably fisherman's dogs or strays and one a husky type thing the size of a small horse, and one bit another pet dog so I wasn't that relaxed.
However, I do agree with you we have to let him off more, but it's not easy around here - the forests now have the dangers of pine processionary caterpillars http://www.mythankyoupage.com/pets-and-animals/dogs-and-killer-processionary-caterpillars-in-portugal/ (http://www.mythankyoupage.com/pets-and-animals/dogs-and-killer-processionary-caterpillars-in-portugal/) for the next couple of months, weather dependent.
Salty gets two 40 mins walks a day and until recently a half hour or more run round the garden (100m by 100m) with me, chasing balls and pine cones etc and zooming around. But then after the windy weather recently (which blows down caterpillars) I stopped that.
I have restarted that now though, and taken a new bite at the 'come back' training, now using a whistle and his favourite dental sticks broken up into little pieces - and it is going really well :)
I will, after a few more days return training, go to the beach on our own and let him off, I will use a couple of m long rope left on him in case he comes back but keeps just out of reach - wish us luck :D
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Agh it must be a nightmare having to deal with things like those caterpillars!!!
We take it for granted here that we never have to consider anything like that!
Didn't mean to depress you with the 2.5 years thing hahaha! I suppose these dogs are always a bit of a work in progress but someone once said to me..'Oh she'll be fine by the time she's three'. THREE?????? I thought, in despair..but time flies and really in the grand scheme of things, even if it did take 3 years to get your dog round, it would mean that you'd then have about 12 years of pain free dog ownership........
If it makes you feel better, our little darling got in the chicken run on Sunday and had one of our chickens by the throat. My husband had to cuff her round the head to get the chicken out (she wasn't letting go of that for anything) and I told him to just go and dump her in the house in solitary and shut the dog flap, which he did.
So annoyed was she, at being excluded that a few minutes later she was back up the garden.
She had got out of the CAT flap. I would've loved to see how she did that!
There is never a dull moment..!
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Umm - do they ever get better with age unlike a fine wine a fine cocker just matures into a older bundle of mischief.....Ollie is 12 years old and has only ever brought me his toys, always hubbies socks(manic) but on sunday he brought me a dead mouse........at the moment the mouse dropped on the kitchen floor I had a roasted chicken I was pulling out of the oven, me thinks the sight of the chicken was more important than the mouse. :shades:
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If its any consolation I was ready at 6 months to drop Robbie off outside the vets and hope that someone had him !!! How bad was that. But he used to jump up at my clothes, swing from my dress. Run a spaniel wall of death every evening and then attack the kids!! So basically what you are experiencing is all normal!!!
It does get better I promise and they are quick learners. I got lots of advice off here. Great bunch.
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Chickens, mice, kids, they aren't fussy are they? :lol:
Salty suddenly lunged at something during one dark winter's morning walk along the road on the lead and then turned his head back to me with a dirty great big thick rat's tail poking out the front of his mouth. That was lovely, removing the rat from his mouth at 7 am before breakfast, yum yum.
And, just this last weekend, he found a decomposing mouse whilst off-lead in the garden which obviously went the same way as the rat ... BUT - I blew my whistle and he came running back to me, sat down, dropped the remains of the mouse and waited patiently for his treat.
I was so proud, for a minute or two till he did something else daft - I cant even remember what it was, there have been so many things since :)
Never a dull moment
Unfortunately found some caterpillars in the garden again so no more off-lead running there for a few months, have to get to the beach more often
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In the sense of giving hope to those who will no doubt be searching for reassurance on this type of behaviour:
Salty is now the best dog in the world ever, with sugar on Amen! :)
He will be 1 at the end of the month and has calmed down so much, but is still so much fun :lol:
He is usually to be found lying on his back in someone's arms having his tummy scratched with his back legs akimbo and snoring
Or else he is running around like a lunatic, trying to get us to play with him, or stealing something, or just generally being adorably mischievous :D :D :D
He still tries it on every so often, snapping too much, usually when tired in evening, but a sharp word and being led outside to his kennel for a few minutes is enough for him to sheepishly return and be on best behaviour again.
He still thinks my daughter is his sister but hopefully that will change and my daughter cant resist cuddling him when he is not in the mood ....
He also is still mouthing a lot, but no aggression at all, although he has perfected the 'extremely painful bum nip' technique if we ignore him for too long :lol2:
I have no idea what made the difference, probably a mixture of the following:
1. Continually using forced separation (i.e. outside to his kennel) when bad behaviour / biting happened. And I mean continual, for months and months, and months.
2. Ensuring enough sleep (I read 16 hrs a day). Just like a kid, I would put him in bed during the day, this seemed to help lots
3. Having a 2m simple thin (5mm) rope house lead put me back into control - he couldn't lead me a merry dance around the house - and he knew it; as soon as I put it on each day he calmed down
4. A visit to the vet for the chop (he is less aggressive since this time, but could be age too?)
5. He has been an inside pet dog, but always slept outside at night. We changed to sleeping inside in feb due to nocturnal processionary caterpillars, and since this he has been much better. I read somewhere that making him sleep outside might 'confuse' him as to being 'punished' with separation for no reason. He is still not aloud upstairs tho.
6. Getting older (and loosing those needle milk teeth :lol: )
I think that the most immediately effective ones were 2, 3, & 5 (and maybe 4?). But what do I know?
Of course, I am beginning to realise that all dogs are different and these worked for our particular 'problem' doggy, so YMMV :)
W.r.t. the guarding of bones etc behaviour, this is also much better now and he lets me have back what is in his mouth, and even to open his mouth and let me put my fingers in to remove dangerous things. Its easier with things he knows are ours. I used the 'swap a treat for the thing' method which gradually worked
He even comes to me from outside when I whistle now, knowing he will get a treat. I started to let him off the lead on the beach and this was going reasonably well and would no doubt have improved once the free beach running novelty wore off, but then the beach was closed due to the coronovirus
I even go jogging with him now on the end of a lead tied around my waist (I am so out of shape that I don't have a hope of over stressing him) I think this helped w.r.t excess energy too actually
What a dog!!
He's my boy!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Thanks so, so, so much to all the advice on here that was so much help, and also to the 'I'm not alone' moral support in realising that this type of biting behaviour was common for Cockers :D :D :D :D
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We have (or at least were meant to have been having before Covid) a new pup (red & white sproker boy) come home in a couple of weeks and reading some of this has really helped me remember what having a pup is like... What have we done :lol:
Lola is 5 now so is either out walking or running with us, having a chew in the garden or asleep somewhere, little does she know about the chaos that is about to come her way...
I think my biggest takeaway from reading this is how much sleep they need, it took us ages to realise that with Lola and things got so much better when we did and secondly, that the puppy phase will end eventually ha!
Thanks for the reminders and tips!
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This is a great read for a lockdown day, a salutary warning for new owners, but full of encouragement. He’s certainly dominated your lives for the last year, and I’m sure will give everyone fun and exercise if he calms down with maturity!
My experience ; Labrador matured at six years and giving me a dislocated shoulder, the clingiest springer spaniel with expensive medical condition, a cocker from hell who I adored, now terriers with attitude.
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Just as an update for anyone at wits end needing some sort of indication that there is actually light at the end of the tunnel (since I know that feeling) ...
Salty is now 2 and 3/4 and is THE best dog in the world. No arguments! If you dont agree you are wrong :D
He has calmed down (not difficult :D) but still has his nutty times to make us laugh
Is not the best behaved dog but knows who is boss
Its impossible to sit down without a cuddle dog flomping belly up on your lap for tummy rubs within nano seconds
Howls if I give my wife a cuddle
Licks rather than nips
still growls if you try to take his favourite toy away, but lets you do it
etc etc
He is my best mate!
Never, ever gonna get anything other than Cockers, Amen!
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What a lovely update! :luv:
You are so right - cockers are definitely not generally an easy breed and can be very challenging. Every day can be a battle of wills, but they are never ever dull and absolutely brilliant company and, without doubt, the best dogs in the world. :lol2:
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Absolutely agree - I gave up the battle of wills long ago as I never win :lol: and so just accept Humphrey’s who he is!! During a nail biting stay in the doggy clinic in September I swore that if he pulled through I would never ever lose patience or get cross with him again. He‘s now getting better and I do admit to getting a weeny bit cross now and again :shades: :005: but he still rules the roost and I wouldn’t have it any other way!! They are THE best breed in my book! :luv:
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hope humphrey is ok now
what a great name ....
watch out, watch out there's a Humphrey about :lol2:
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hope humphrey is ok now
what a great name ....
watch out, watch out there's a Humphrey about :lol2:
Showing your age.......me too 🤣🤣
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something my dad always says to me - I have no recollection of it ......
Ahem!
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hope humphrey is ok now
what a great name ....
watch out, watch out there's a Humphrey about :lol2:
Showing your age.......me too 🤣🤣
:lol: :lol: - that‘s a real blast from the past, and yes, a reminder of how old we are! :lol2: :lol2:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOeL18BFc0o
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🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Fabulous! Thanks for that!!