CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: Brimbeck(Dyllan) on November 15, 2006, 05:31:06 PM
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Dyllan has been fab at recall. :D ...........but yesterday and today he ran away from my OH at the start of his walk >:D
My OH let him off in the field that leads to a wood near us and Dyllan ran back passed him down a path and on to a road. He then got off the road and sat by the side of the road. He was so lucky each time as although it not very busy the traffic is quite quick on it.
Is this the start of teenage behaviour? He is coming up to 5 mths.
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Yes he could well be heading into adolescence at 5 months. ::)
My Lab Sapphi was hit by a van a few weeks ago, as she didn't stop where she usually does according to my OH >:( .
Its really not worth the risk. If the woods is away from any roads then I would wait until you're in the woods. Practice his recall while your out loads. You could always try a whistle, I did when Max, my golden ret, started to fail at recall and it worked wonders. There's a way of introducing the whistle that really works well, which takes about 8 days but has good results. I've put this method in a few posts in the past but if you can't find it let me know and I'll give you the details.
If you're really struggling to keep him safe then a long line may be your answer. I know IWLass used that method with Molo.
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Is this the start of teenage behaviour? He is coming up to 5 mths.
It might just be a one off- but it could be the start of adolescence - so you might have to be prepared for a battle of wills ::)
If you're really struggling to keep him safe then a long line may be your answer. I know IWLass used that method with Molo.
After two or three terrifying incidents (one on a COL meet when Molo disappeared for 10 minutes in a place we had NEVER been to before ph34r) - I armed myself with a long line and a training booklet ::)
Now he is trained, I know the extent of Molo's reliable recall and never allow him to *fail*; and one of the things we have agreed as a family (and stick to even now) is that there had to be at least a field length or equivalent between Molo and the nearest road for him to be allowed off lead; unless the area is securely fenced ;) This provides a buffer zone for us and him - unless he is spooked, he is very unlikely to run that far without looking back or getting distracted by sniffs ::)
All dogs are different; some dogs may roam further than others and need a longer distance between them and the roads - especially at first - but once you have worked out what suits Dyllan, it makes life a lot less stressful for all ;)
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Thank you both. I may have to get hold of a long line and try that.
Appreciate your help very much:D
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You shouldn't, in theory, need a long line. Repetition and enforcement of the recall command is vital. Always encourage the dog when he/she does something right and make yourself appealing to him to come back to, getting low to the ground etc. Tone of voice should be enough. Make sure your dog is 100% on the recall in an area you know he can't get away from you. Have you tried a stop whistle to stop the dog?
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You shouldn't, in theory, need a long line.
Quite true - in practice however, a long line can save a dogs life ;)
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Thank you both. I may have to get hold of a long line and try that.
Appreciate your help very much:D
Sometimes even if they're not doing this every day assume they will (as they know when you're being complacent)
I used a long line but only for a short while when Wilf hit this stage but I also worked out the best way was to increase my bond with him --- they are becoming more independent at this stage so I needed to make sure he would still at least listen to me. I found the keeping them close through playing games and also changing direction --- if you keep walking the same route each day they become confident enough to know where they're going and you'll always be there. Even if you walk in the same place change direction every so often (you see some people walk the same way round the park every day and probably at the same time but I walk round or across or the opposite way I went the day before or whatever), play hide and seek. I think if you're just following them all the time on walks they will assume thats what you do so why should they go back to you if you're going to come to them anyway!
Even now if they just go that bit too far and am unsure of what lays ahead or there may be danger I have strategies to stop them and get them to come back to me quickly if need be. Because they don't want to lose me they will follow me if I call them then walk back away from them (in the early days of doing this I would jump up and down like an idiot and run madly waving my arms to get them to recall).
This year Ruby decided to go off on binbag hunts --- she'd worked out where everyone put the binbags down the lanes round here (back alleys or ginels if you're from lancs reading this!) and so as soon as she was let offlead she'd run off and would be picked up an hour later as these blasted lanes are like a maze, or on the way home from our walk she'd go into the woods on the park and disappear only to emerge in the lanes again (not just on bin days though as she'd worked out they left some of the rubbish behind). It was becoming a real problem as now Wilf had cottoned on to this and I had visions of never walking them offlead on the park again. Interestingly though the solution was a simple one --- I took either a ball or the chuckit out with me and as soon as I let them off the lead they focused on me and didn't go on binbag hunts again.
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If you want a cheap long line have a look on ebay at webbing and you can buy loads of it really cheap, I used one but to be honest mocha was to smart and he knew when it was on and off, and behaved accordingly. I even and a spare clip and I used to put it on him so he would think I had put a line on him, but no to clever for that. I find keeping close is working for me at the moment rather than letting him get to far away from you on the line. But it is a long hard road and I am struggling.
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You shouldn't, in theory, need a long line.
Quite true - in practice however, a long line can save a dogs life ;)
I think it is a very sensible option to use a long line in recall training, as you said Rachel you need to set up to succeed.
It is one of the hardest things I find to get through to my clients.
DO NOT call the dog unless you are sure of success!
If you do you will dilute the power of the cue.
Reward with a really high value reinforcer for a full thirty seconds if you can and always reward your dog with something it wants when it comes to you.
Tone of voice and praise are sometimes not enough.
I use 10 meter horse lunge reins from netto, it only cost me about 3 quid and is one of the most valuable training aides i have.
At 5/6 months dogs enter adolesence with allsorts of hormonal changes going on.
Dogs also enter a second fear response stage at this time where things that they have been ok with up until now can all of a sudden start to spook the dog.
Maybe something he reacted to spooked Dyllan?
remember as well that a recall learned in one location will not generalise easily to other places.
Train your recall in as many locations as possible, but remember always ensure it is happening or will happen before you use your cue and reward every time when the dog comes.
Make your dog feel that coming to you is the best thing in the world.
One of my tricks is to reward with half a roast chicken every now and again. ;) That seems to help matters :005:
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mark the roast chicken is great, although I do end up with everyone else dog coming back to!!
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Have you tried a stop whistle to stop the dog?
Out of interest how does this work? I imagine training a dog to "stop" is quite difficult?
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One of my tricks is to reward with half a roast chicken every now and again. ;) That seems to help matters :005:
:lol: :lol: I bet it does! :lol: Billy would do the ironing for half a chicken :005:
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Have you tried a stop whistle to stop the dog?
Out of interest how does this work? I imagine training a dog to "stop" is quite difficult?
I don't know about stop them but a whistle does help recall them --- I've used an acme gundog whistle in the past
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Have you tried a stop whistle to stop the dog?
Out of interest how does this work? I imagine training a dog to "stop" is quite difficult?
I don't know about stop them but a whistle does help recall them --- I've used an acme gundog whistle in the past
i use an acme whistle too. Jan, my 'stop' command is actually a sit or lie down at a distance.
this is how i did it... start with your sit or lie down command and your dog close to you. if you can get a sit/lie down reliably, each time you do, add your whistle command (in our case 1 blow on the whistle) so the dogs associate that command with a sit or lie down.
practice practice practice - we started with using the whistle in the house at meal times (a lot of people use a sit and wait with their dogs before the dogs scoff so this is good starting point) and progress outside.
we haven't got it 100% and practice every day but it's getting better! and slowly slowly slowly add the distance (and in our case, our hand signal for wait/stay)
Am finding it so much easier now jarv is 17 months - that learning blip of adolescence seems to have almost disappeared and his random selective hearing is easing off too!!!
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Have you tried a stop whistle to stop the dog?
Out of interest how does this work? I imagine training a dog to "stop" is quite difficult?
Livercake has added an excellent post. Basically it's an association between blowing the whistle and sitting down (or lying down). I start it with making them site, then introduce the whistle when I command the sit. Eventually they will sit just to the whistle.
You can build on this by then starting to drop them at distance. Start off at small distances, a few yards in front of you, eventually you will be able to sit them at any distance. It's all about the bond you have with your dog. He must be focused on you and look to you for the next command
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It's all about the bond you have with your dog. He must be focused on you and look to you for the next command
It is but it is also about the phase the dog is going through.
In my opinion the teenage phase is not the time to be teaching new skills or altering commands.
Get a long line to keep him safe ( in my experience dogs don't always transfer behaviour they exibit when using the line anyway ) and let him off when you can so he can still have a good run.
Sometimes I think the teenage phase is something us dog owners have to "get through" and then commence traning afterwards.
:D
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Have you tried a stop whistle to stop the dog?
Out of interest how does this work? I imagine training a dog to "stop" is quite difficult?
I don't know about stop them but a whistle does help recall them --- I've used an acme gundog whistle in the past
Yeah I used to recall Billy with he whistle, had never heard of it being used to "stop"
Cheers ;)
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It's all about the bond you have with your dog. He must be focused on you and look to you for the next command
It is but it is also about the phase the dog is going through.
In my opinion the teenage phase is not the time to be teaching new skills or altering commands.
Get a long line to keep him safe ( in my experience dogs don't always transfer behaviour they exibit when using the line anyway ) and let him off when you can so he can still have a good run.
Sometimes I think the teenage phase is something us dog owners have to "get through" and then commence traning afterwards.
:D
He's still only 5 months, and I agree, I wouldn't be training mine yet. 6 months minimum for anything other than basic such as sit, stay and recall to his name. Persevere with the basics and it will come good
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It's all about the bond you have with your dog. He must be focused on you and look to you for the next command
It is but it is also about the phase the dog is going through.
In my opinion the teenage phase is not the time to be teaching new skills or altering commands.
Get a long line to keep him safe ( in my experience dogs don't always transfer behaviour they exibit when using the line anyway ) and let him off when you can so he can still have a good run.
Sometimes I think the teenage phase is something us dog owners have to "get through" and then commence traning afterwards.
:D
He's still only 5 months, and I agree, I wouldn't be training mine yet. 6 months minimum for anything other than basic such as sit, stay and recall to his name. Persevere with the basics and it will come good
6 months is a little early imho to expect training to sink in with a cocker!
i think from very recent experience mich and i have a shared view that between 5 months to 1 year it is a difficult time to get any effective, reliable and consistent results from training. this time frame varies of course from dog to dog. when my dog hit 11 months his 'hearing' came back and it is far far easier to train him with good results. Training sessions in the adolescent peak are frustrating and no matter how 'attractive' you make yourself you sometimes lose out to another dog, a bird or a pile of horse poo.
The gamekeeper that bred jarv doesn't begin training his spaniels until a year old for beating or picking up, and i can see why.
perservere with dyllan, be consistent - some days will be good, some bad ;) most important thing is to have methods that will keep him 'safe' which will range from a long line to smelling like a german sausage factory with pockets packed full of sossij & livercake :lol:
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6 months is a little early imho to expect training to sink in with a cocker!
i think from very recent experience mich and i have a shared view that between 5 months to 1 year it is a difficult time to get any effective, reliable and consistent results from training. this time frame varies of course from dog to dog. when my dog hit 11 months his 'hearing' came back and it is far far easier to train him with good results. Training sessions in the adolescent peak are frustrating and no matter how 'attractive' you make yourself you sometimes lose out to another dog, a bird or a pile of horse poo.
The gamekeeper that bred jarv doesn't begin training his spaniels until a year old for beating or picking up, and i can see why.
perservere with dyllan, be consistent - some days will be good, some bad ;) most important thing is to have methods that will keep him 'safe' which will range from a long line to smelling like a german sausage factory with pockets packed full of sossij & livercake :lol:
Conversely, Ian Openshaw, the many time Field Trial Champion winner begins training around six months. I was watching him at the game fair in September and he had 8 week old cocker pups sitting and retrieving. Its all down to individual dogs.
All of the training DVDs I have watched say 6 months is when they start
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6 months is a little early imho to expect training to sink in with a cocker!
i think from very recent experience mich and i have a shared view that between 5 months to 1 year it is a difficult time to get any effective, reliable and consistent results from training. this time frame varies of course from dog to dog. when my dog hit 11 months his 'hearing' came back and it is far far easier to train him with good results. Training sessions in the adolescent peak are frustrating and no matter how 'attractive' you make yourself you sometimes lose out to another dog, a bird or a pile of horse poo.
The gamekeeper that bred jarv doesn't begin training his spaniels until a year old for beating or picking up, and i can see why.
perservere with dyllan, be consistent - some days will be good, some bad ;) most important thing is to have methods that will keep him 'safe' which will range from a long line to smelling like a german sausage factory with pockets packed full of sossij & livercake :lol:
Conversely, Ian Openshaw, the many time Field Trial Champion winner begins training around six months. I was watching him at the game fair in September and he had 8 week old cocker pups sitting and retrieving. Its all down to individual dogs.
All of the training DVDs I have watched say 6 months is when they start
just mine (and mich's) recent experience scott, depends on your choice of training methods too (mine don't include ear pulling or shaking your gundog to 'encourage' learning, or other 'physical' methods). Just out of interest, have you had cockers before or will your forthcoming pup be your first one?
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depends on your choice of training methods too (mine don't include ear pulling or shaking your gundog to 'encourage' learning, or other 'physical' methods).
:o :o Sorry bit naive here when it comes to workers but I didn't think people still used physical methods these days? :huh:
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just mine (and mich's) recent experience scott, depends on your choice of training methods too (mine don't include ear pulling or shaking your gundog to 'encourage' learning, or other 'physical' methods). Just out of interest, have you had cockers before or will your forthcoming pup be your first one?
It will be my first cocker but second gundog. A lot of the same principles apply, just need to control the spaniels huting a bit more. I realise everything will not go 100% to plan. I've been reading and watching working cocker books and dvds for the past 3 years just trying to cover every base lol
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depends on your choice of training methods too (mine don't include ear pulling or shaking your gundog to 'encourage' learning, or other 'physical' methods).
:o :o Sorry bit naive here when it comes to workers but I didn't think people still used physical methods these days? :huh:
It's likely to go on with some trainers I suppose but I'm not an advocate of it. The only physical contact I have had with my dog through training is picking it up by the scruff of the neck and putting it back where it was told or where I blew the whistle. 99% of the time my dog responds to a change in voice tone
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I spoke to lots of gundog trainers when Bails went through his difficult phase and i thought i had the dog from hell >:( ( i don't he is amazing now :luv: :luv: :luv:) They all said without exception, wait till he is 16 months! You are expecting too much too soon. ph34r
In the end I didn't have to wait that long, he started turning back at about 11 months old! :lol:
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I spoke to lots of gundog trainers when Bails went through his difficult phase and i thought i had the dog from hell >:( ( i don't he is amazing now :luv: :luv: :luv:) They all said without exception, wait till he is 16 months! You are expecting too much too soon. ph34r
In the end I didn't have to wait that long, he started turning back at about 11 months old! :lol:
Wait until 16 months for what?
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To see the results I wanted. Which at the time was good recall. :D
Just think it is important to stress that the behaviour the dog exibits during the teenage phase is not always a good indicator of the type of gundog he or she may make.
Of course some dogs may not have this problem, fine great train them earlier, but with some you will need to wait till you see the results you want.
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just mine (and mich's) recent experience scott, depends on your choice of training methods too (mine don't include ear pulling or shaking your gundog to 'encourage' learning, or other 'physical' methods). Just out of interest, have you had cockers before or will your forthcoming pup be your first one?
It will be my first cocker but second gundog. A lot of the same principles apply, just need to control the spaniels huting a bit more. I realise everything will not go 100% to plan. I've been reading and watching working cocker books and dvds for the past 3 years just trying to cover every base lol
So long as you realise its not going to be easy. Training a working cocker is completely different to any other gundog. They are a challenge, but worth it. My OH(gamekeeper) actually cheated with Dash and Steve Wanstall from Kent had him for a month ph34r He did an amazing job. However my OH began all the basic obedience with Dash right from day one when we brought him home at 8 weeks.He took him everywhere with him,even I took him to syay with my parents with my show types so that re-enforced his want to be with a please us hooman beans. That was something he hadnt done with his other cocker, taking wrong advice.
I guess my point is that each dog whatever the breed is different, So just be prepared for it to not be quite as easy as you seem to think ;)
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The only physical contact I have had with my dog through training is picking it up by the scruff of the neck and putting it back where it was told or where I blew the whistle.
:(
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So long as you realise its not going to be easy. Training a working cocker is completely different to any other gundog. They are a challenge, but worth it. My OH(gamekeeper) actually cheated with Dash and Steve Wanstall from Kent had him for a month ph34r He did an amazing job. However my OH began all the basic obedience with Dash right from day one when we brought him home at 8 weeks.He took him everywhere with him,even I took him to syay with my parents with my show types so that re-enforced his want to be with a please us hooman beans. That was something he hadnt done with his other cocker, taking wrong advice.
I guess my point is that each dog whatever the breed is different, So just be prepared for it to not be quite as easy as you seem to think ;)
Oh I know it won't be easy, I got one for the challenge >:D
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The only physical contact I have had with my dog through training is picking it up by the scruff of the neck and putting it back where it was told or where I blew the whistle.
:(
Why the unhappy face? Picking a dog up by the scruff of the neck doesnt hurt it at all. It's how I and many other lift their dogs over barbed wire etc
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The only physical contact I have had with my dog through training is picking it up by the scruff of the neck and putting it back where it was told or where I blew the whistle.
:(
Why the unhappy face? Picking a dog up by the scruff of the neck doesnt hurt it at all. It's how I and many other lift their dogs over barbed wire etc
If you actually have to ask that question...... then I question why you have a dog if thats the only physical contact you have with your dog ph34r
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The only physical contact I have had with my dog through training is picking it up by the scruff of the neck and putting it back where it was told or where I blew the whistle.
:(
Why the unhappy face? Picking a dog up by the scruff of the neck doesnt hurt it at all. It's how I and many other lift their dogs over barbed wire etc
If you actually have to ask that question...... then I question why you have a dog if thats the only physical contact you have with your dog ph34r
I mean in terms of disciplining it. As in not beating, hitting it etc in response to trainers using physical means. I spend hours with my dog when I'm at home with him. Brushing, playing etc.
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The only physical contact I have had with my dog through training is picking it up by the scruff of the neck and putting it back where it was told or where I blew the whistle.
:(
Why the unhappy face? Picking a dog up by the scruff of the neck doesnt hurt it at all. It's how I and many other lift their dogs over barbed wire etc
I mean in terms of disciplining it. As in not beating, hitting it etc in response to trainers using physical means. I spend hours with my dog when I'm at home with him. Brushing, playing etc.
I know that is what you meant - my :( stands :(
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The only physical contact I have had with my dog through training is picking it up by the scruff of the neck and putting it back where it was told or where I blew the whistle.
:(
Why the unhappy face? Picking a dog up by the scruff of the neck doesnt hurt it at all. It's how I and many other lift their dogs over barbed wire etc
I mean in terms of disciplining it. As in not beating, hitting it etc in response to trainers using physical means. I spend hours with my dog when I'm at home with him. Brushing, playing etc.
I know that is what you meant - my :( stands :(
Why though? What is wrong with picking the dog up and placing him back where I told him to stop? I do not shake him or rag him, just pick him up and put him back, and blow the stop whistle
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Why though? What is wrong with picking the dog up and placing him back where I told him to stop?
I think if you take the time to read back through the threads in this behaviour sub-forum, you will find the answer ;)
I am not alone in my preference to use positive training methods, rather than resorting to physically dominating, or frightening, my dog :(
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it is a huge comfort to hear others saying that trying to train through adolescence is almost an impossibility. up until about 5 months old, barkley could pick up new commands very quickly, but we pretty much assumed once adolescence kicked in that the best we can do is try to maintain what he knows already and then start up again once we have his attention back. ;)
our local trainers wont start gun dog training on any dog before they are one year old, and then it's judged on an individual basis.
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The only physical contact I have had with my dog through training is picking it up by the scruff of the neck and putting it back where it was told or where I blew the whistle.
:(
Why the unhappy face? Picking a dog up by the scruff of the neck doesnt hurt it at all. It's how I and many other lift their dogs over barbed wire etc
I mean in terms of disciplining it. As in not beating, hitting it etc in response to trainers using physical means. I spend hours with my dog when I'm at home with him. Brushing, playing etc.
I know that is what you meant - my :( stands :(
I know thats what you meant. Physical praise is an excellent positive re-enforcer
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I'd be interested to know how you would deal with the problem. It's the only way I can think of of taking him back to the place where I blew the whistle and wanted him to stop. There is no malice in it, I just carry him by it
My dog has always been used to being picked up by the scruff of the nexk to lift over fences etc. He has no problem with it and I'd rather do this than to have him cut by barbed wire. Physically there should be no issues should there? After all, mothers often carry pups by the scruf of the neck when transporting them in the wild etc.
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I'd be interested to know how you would deal with the problem. It's the only way I can think of of taking him back to the place where I blew the whistle and wanted him to stop. There is no malice in it, I just carry him by it
My dog has always been used to being picked up by the scruff of the nexk to lift over fences etc. He has no problem with it and I'd rather do this than to have him cut by barbed wire. Physically there should be no issues should there? After all, mothers often carry pups by the scruf of the neck when transporting them in the wild etc.
The key word is puppies are picked up by the scruff. Not growing dogs. There own weight would hurt them.
Ignore the unwanted behaviour...walk the dog back to where you want it to be...physically praise gently...then start again. It is very hard demanding work tha requires an awful lot of patience, but worth it in the end because you enhance the dogs will to please. If you've chosen a pup from really good working line and create a good bond with your pup from the word go it all fall into place quite quickly.
Sorry I'm not having a go at you ;)
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Dont apologise, all opinions are welcome. I found with lab that if I took him back by the scruff to the point I blew the whistle and blew the whistle again, he was far more responsive than when I tried putting him on the lead and taking him back to the spot.
I realise that different dogs will have different temperaments etc and some dogs may not benefit from this.
People I beat and Pick Up with regularly lift their dogs over fences by the scruff of the neck and not one of them whines or howls, so it can't be causing pain. They wag their tail regardless
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I found with lab that if I took him back by the scruff to the point I blew the whistle and blew the whistle again, he was far more responsive than when I tried putting him on the lead and taking him back to the spot.
But just because it works doesn't mean it's the right way of doing it in my opinion. The dog may be more responsive using this method but that maybe becuase it knows that if it doesn't do what you want it to then it experiences pain, so it does it out of fear. Personally I'd rather have a dog that learns through positive pleasurable experience and reward rather than fear :D
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I found with lab that if I took him back by the scruff to the point I blew the whistle and blew the whistle again, he was far more responsive than when I tried putting him on the lead and taking him back to the spot.
But just because it works doesn't mean it's the right way of doing it in my opinion. The dog may be more responsive using this method but that maybe becuase it knows that if it doesn't do what you want it to then it experiences pain, so it does it out of fear. Personally I'd rather have a dog that learns through pleasurable experience and reward rather than fear :D
I accept your opinion. My dog doesnt fear me at all. He does anything and his tail is always going. I do not use the picking up as punishment, just a means of taking it back to where I wanted it to stop. The frequent use of picking it up by the scruff of the neck to lift over fences etc makes sure that picking it up using this method is not associated with fear
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I don't scruff Alfie to move him back into position but I have done it to lift him over fences (I grab the thick fur at the top of his tail as well to balance him) and he doesn't mind at all, in fact if he gets up high enough he tries to lick my face on the way past! I can absolutely 100% say he is not afraid or hurt when I do this because he is a wuss and will scream like a baby if he is hurt even a little bit but with this he just wags his tail.
I have also seen other very experienced gundog trainers scruff their dogs to move them back and while I don't do it with my dogs I don't have a huge issue with it. To me it's similar to things like using twitches on horses' upper lips (a loop of rope on the end of a stick which is twisted extremely tightly around the lip) to calm them when receiving vet treatment, it doesn't look very nice to us but it doesn't cause them any pain or distress.
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Dont apologise, all opinions are welcome. I found with lab that if I took him back by the scruff to the point I blew the whistle and blew the whistle again, he was far more responsive than when I tried putting him on the lead and taking him back to the spot.
I realise that different dogs will have different temperaments etc and some dogs may not benefit from this.
People I beat and Pick Up with regularly lift their dogs over fences by the scruff of the neck and not one of them whines or howls, so it can't be causing pain. They wag their tail regardless
Yeah I know. The majority of the shooting world still have oldfashioned views about their dogs ::). My OH wont take his dogs to a certain shoot because of the amount of fences.
Labs and cockers are sooo diffferent. Cockers are much more sensitive and may react badly to something you can readily do with a lab. My OH has both and trained his lab, but came unstuck with his first cocker, so like I said cheated and sent his second to be trained professionally ::) It was worth it tho. I dont have a problem with pickin a dog by the scruff and support it elsewhere for transportation, just dont think its a good idea for training a cocker ;)
We've gone off the original topic now tho ph34r
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Dont apologise, all opinions are welcome. I found with lab that if I took him back by the scruff to the point I blew the whistle and blew the whistle again, he was far more responsive than when I tried putting him on the lead and taking him back to the spot.
I realise that different dogs will have different temperaments etc and some dogs may not benefit from this.
People I beat and Pick Up with regularly lift their dogs over fences by the scruff of the neck and not one of them whines or howls, so it can't be causing pain. They wag their tail regardless
Yeah I know. The majority of the shooting world still have oldfashioned views about their dogs ::). My OH wont take his dogs to a certain shoot because of the amount of fences.
Labs and cockers are sooo diffferent. Cockers are much more sensitive and may react badly to something you can readily do with a lab. My OH has both and trained his lab, but came unstuck with his first cocker, so like I said cheated and sent his second to be trained professionally ::) It was worth it tho. I dont have a problem with pickin a dog by the scruff and support it elsewhere for transportation, just dont think its a good idea for training a cocker ;)
We've gone off the original topic now tho ph34r
I suppose it's all down to personal preference isn't it. That's how people must take ANY advice on this forum. It is mainly personal opinion and experiences.
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We've gone off the original topic now tho ph34r
oops yeah sorry hadn't noticed ph34r
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Wow!
What a lot of replies since this morning :D
Just to let you know Dyllan was very good today. :angel:
So it looks like there will be good and bad days as you have said.
I'm going for keeping him safe (long line and very safe areas) and keeping training simple whilst he gets through his adolescence.
Many thanks fro your help.
The local gamekeeper saw him today and thought he was great. I was very proud.
Sarah & Dyllan
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At most shoots that I have been on other people have lifted their dogs up by the scruff to get them over fences, personally I never did, don't think that I could lift a grown cocker up high enough to lift it cleanly over barbed wire.They always found a way through themselves or I lifted them by by their bodies.
In gundog training classes it is taught that if your dog moves away from where you put it then you go after it and lift it by the scruff and put it back from where it moved from, I always wondered if I would be able to do this but luckily the problem never arose.
Dyllan
Good idea to use the long line until you are more confident of a good recall, a good motto is do not put your dog in a position to do wrong and never finish a training session on a bad note.
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If i was training a stop whistle,and I have been recently with Bayley I wouldn't ask for more than he was capable of and i would ensure the level of my expectation could be achieved.
i would not set the dog up to fail in the first place.
I have picked one of my dogs up by the scruff to get him out of a dangerous situation and He did not seem to mind although i think repeating this on a regular basis would have a detrimental effect my relationship with him. I have worked to long on gaining his trust and I may be wrong but I'd rather not take the chance.
Dogs make all sorts of weired associations with events and behaviours and punishment of any sort although it does work in the short term is only in a case such as this IMHO making up for the shortcomings of the trainer.
I know some gundog trainers who may also be repectable members of much trusted training organisations who's ethos is all positive training still use punishment and domination and I have seen this first hand.
This particular trainer built her dogs up with the clicker and then hung them from their leads for breaking a stay.
IMHO this trainer should have hung herself up because it was her lack of training and over expectation of her dogs around the distractions going on that were the problem. >:D
Sorry i really have gone off topic. :huh:
Don't ask to much of your dog in training it is not a race and there is certainly no need to scruff a dog to make it stop on cue. >:D
Mark
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well said Mark ;)
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This particular trainer built her dogs up with the clicker and then hung them from their leads for breaking a stay.
Oh my god, that's awful :'(
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This particular trainer built her dogs up with the clicker and then hung them from their leads for breaking a stay.
Oh my god, that's awful :'(
Needless to say I have never being back to this well known trainer since and she did it in front of a client she was teaching.
I was horrified, but she seemed to think it was all par for the course.
Yes she had ultra obedient dogs, but the reason for it is that they were kenneled all day and the only interaction they had with her was training.
Any attention is better than no attention and the dogs seemed petrified of her!
I also saw her punch one of them.
Sorry, but this sort of thing does still go on. >:D
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I also saw her punch one of them.
Sorry, but this sort of thing does still go on. >:D
Jesus! That's awful >:D
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Just caught up with this thread and read the lot in one go
Blimey so much I want to comment
Sarah, long line for Dyllan is brill idea, I've got one for Fern my little :angel: off lead in the forrest and my little >:D off lead in an open field >:( I wouldn't be without mine at the mo ;) keeping madam safe is a definate must.
Most of you will remember I had an offer to have Fern go off to a gamekeeper to be trained and after serious thought decided to train her myself.
Well Fern has been out with said gamekeeper twice to be socialised to the gun and he needed her to get the other side of a fence - what he did was let her find her own way, he said she'll either jump it or find the whole ten feet away to get through, she found the whole ;) he doesn't believe in using the scruff to get them over fences unless there is no other way, as he won't leave the dog.
Unfortunately as Fern is nearly in season >:( still not arrived. My month up on the hill with Fern and game keeper for my training (not Fern's) has had to be put on hold.
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Mark
I think you are so right about expectations I know I have tried to train mocha beyond what he is capable. I have now gone back, and work on our bond and trust and we are both enjoying it more and getting more success.
I do however feel that it is important to say that it is not just gundog trainers and people who work their dogs who may use techniques in training that other may find unacceptable. I feel we need to be careful not to tar a whole dog loving community with the same brush. I have spoken and trained with several gundog people and they love their dogs and use positve training methods. I spoke to a lovely couple who trial their labs he said to me the only stick he every uses on a dog is.......a bono stick :D and pulled it out of his pocket and laughed. It was lovely to watch the couple with their 9 dogs on a walk all walking lovely and with complete attention on their handlers.
There are lots of pet dog owners in the community as a whole that due to ignorance in their dogs mistreat them to get desired results and I do not feel that the working gundog community are the only ones. ( I do not wish my comments in this thread to turn into a working methods vs others, I am only making an observation)
But back to the matter in hand, I made the mistake of letting mocha run around free hunting from an early age and I am working hard to recover from that and ensure that I am the most interesting thing around and not the pheasant or rabbit lurking in the corner of the bushes! but it's hard completing with nature! good luck and keep at it
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Best of luck Anita!
I agree with your comments that we should not just tarnish gun dog trainers as there are a whole lot of trainers in all canine ports out there who still use aversive methods and get results.
I too know of gundog trainers who use clickers and positive reinforcement, but there is without doubt a stigma attached to gundog trainers and their use of aversives and this thread is highlighting different attitudes to training and what is acceptable or not to the individual.
As the trainer that is a decision you have to make whether you train gundogs, guide dogs or obedience champions.
No one method is right and no one trainer is right all the time.
There will always be people wanting to prove your method is wrong as we all have differing views on each others methods.
Mark
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As always I think it depends on the dog. Some dogs will repsond to a long line, some to treats, mine to none!! >:D
We have used the scruff to correct Conker . No amount of bonding, long lines or tasty treats have helped his recall despite putting in daily effort on this, however, getting after him, collecting him by the scruff, not grabbing, and taking him back to the spot he didn't respond has worked. We were told by our obedience trainer, a man with many letters after his name that we would never get the dog to come back as it was in his breeding to chase!!! As if I didn't know!
Literally at the end of our tethers, on the verge of handing him back to the rescue centre he came from we turned to a very reputable gun dog trainer.I have never met a man who has such an obvious love of working with dogs, and such an empathy with them. I do not feel that this has harmed Conker in anyway and one day it may save his life.
Lots of good suggestions on the thread, just a case of seeing what works
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I think it is such a shame when people give up on positive reinforcement methods because they don't see instant responses :( Why do we have such high expectations of our dogs? We are a different species, and communicate/interact/relate in a totally different way to them - and yet we expect dogs to learn what we teach them far quicker than we expect our own species to learn :-\
Molo's recall training took over a year (partly because I made mistakes when he was a tiny pup ::)) - and it involved a lot of frustration, tears and despair on my part....... :-\
Jean Donaldson says that she would consider using negative reinforcement training methods in cases of predation problems if the dogs life is at risk - but only if "all else fails", which she says is not "I tried this a bit and that without much know-how and now I am fed up" (http://img200.exs.cx/img200/7135/eyebrow1qb.gif)
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Jean Donaldson says that she would consider using negative reinforcement training methods in cases of predation problems if the dogs life is at risk -
What is a predation problem? :huh:
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if the dogs life is at risk
It could be argued that a dog which does not recall or drop to the stop whistle is life or death, I know people who have lost their dog because it has chanced and not returned to either recall or dropped. I have lost count of the amount of people who have said to me on walks 'oh it comes back eventually' for me I can't accept that behaviour from my dog, it panics me to much, and I would be devasted if I lost my dog due to something like that.
Also with regards to taking a dog by the scruff, when I am out training mocha and working him, as many working dogs they do not have their collars on incase they catch on something. Therefore it is sometime all you can get hold of until you put the lead on.
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Aversive methods are often a quick fix.
You just have to search your heart and see if it sits right with you.
All dogs are indeed different and obviously aversive methods work or people wouldn't have been using them all these years otherwise.
I have two of these hard wired gun dogs who's instincts tell them to go and flush game and I have worked damned hard to ensure the recall is proofed by using positive methods.
With Bayley it took me 6 months and personally i do not believe you cannot train a dog using positive methods as long as you reward the dog with something it really wants.
Some trainers are so one dimensional with their rewards and fail because of this and lack of patience.
Excellent debate on both sides thankyou.
mark
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You just have to search your heart and see if it sits right with you.
A great point mark, I saw on one of the signatures of a member of nobs,
"A man who kicks his dog, is kicking his soul to hell"
how true, not that I kick my dog but I always think of that phrase if I get frustrated with the boy.
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Jean Donaldson says that she would consider using negative reinforcement training methods in cases of predation problems if the dogs life is at risk -
What is a predation problem? :huh:
I have always assumed she is referring to dogs such as some greyhounds, which have a high prey drive; which has often been reinforced through training - highly-driven greys can, and will, chase and kill small animals that run - including small breed dogs :-\ If this cannot be trained out of a greyhound after they leave the track, then they face a very poor quality of life, or PTS :( The majority of ex-racing dogs can be trained out of this without the need to use negative methods - but in the case of a few, I suppose it may be necessary to "quick fix", as spaces in rescue are limited and so a dog which is taking time to retrain is taking up a space which could be offered to a rehabilitated dog :-\
It could be argued that a dog which does not recall or drop to the stop whistle is life or death, I know people who have lost their dog because it has chanced and not returned to either recall or dropped.
Quite true......but I agree with Mark - positive methods do work; they take longer, though, which means more work for the trainer ;)
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I have two of these hard wired gun dogs who's instincts tell them to go and flush game and I have worked damned hard to ensure the recall is proofed by using positive methods.
I have two too. :D When we are over the fields their recall is very good. :angel:
But when I take them to the woods, you can pretty much forget it for the first 15 minutes or so. ::) They are off chasing squirrels and flushing pheasants to their hearts' content.
OH and I have argued over what to do in this situation. He says we shouldn't take them as it undoes all the work we have put into their recall. I think we shouldn't try to recall them for the first 15 minutes or so, and work on it for the rest of the walk. They are good on recall without major distractions, and it won't improve with distractions unless we work on it. :-\
What would you advise?
The woods are totally isolated by the way, so there is no danger of them running onto the road and we have never met anyone else there.
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Let me know where it is sounds a great place to walk your dog!!!
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He says we shouldn't take them as it undoes all the work we have put into their recall. I think we shouldn't try to recall them for the first 15 minutes or so, and work on it for the rest of the walk.
If it is safe for them (enclosed from any roads and there is no risk of them spooking other people/horses/animals etc), then why not? ;)
When I was line training Molo, I used to go to tennis courts and other enclosed spaces such a paddocks and let him run to his hearts content without the line - I didn't try and recall him as I knew it would reinforce him ignoring me, but felt it was important for both of us and our bond that he had this freedom without us having to constantly be in "training" mode ;)
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But when I take them to the woods, you can pretty much forget it for the first 15 minutes or so. ::) They are off chasing squirrels and flushing pheasants to their hearts' content.
Well they say not to recall the dog if you aren't 100% it will come back so I wouldn't for the first 15 mins. Therefore your aren't rienforcing any them ignoring you. I sure a friends paddocks on her farm for mochas free running, so lucky there.
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in this situation only use your recall cue when the dog is on his way to you already and reward with something the dog really wants.
With Bayley just being released to go and do his thing after a few paces walking by my side is better than any food reward, but it might not always be the case.
You have to build up an understanding of what your dog wants at that moment in time and use it to your advantage.
I do use food and treat for up to thirty seconds with one of my dogs when he recalls but with Baylo the food is trivial and whilst he'll gladly take it and get something positive from being with me it has now become the fact he will be released again that is his major reward. for those of you who don't know his story, his off lead experience was very limited when i took him on in February and to see him dash through the heather it's like it's still all new to him.
it's like he just got the keys to a new Ferrari (He wishes ;))
I also do not always release him so he is on what is called a variable shedule of reward.
A human comparrisonis like playing a slot machine and you never know if you might just earn that jackpot. Most of the time you win 50p and just the odd time you win big.
The trick is to allow the dog to win big just enough times to keep him hooked.
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I'm fairly strong but I couldn't physically pick Spike up by the scruff of his neck to lift him up over a fence even if I wanted to - (which I don't!) as he weighs over 30kgs!! ;)
Sorry if I've deviated slightly off topic!!
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if the dogs life is at risk
It could be argued that a dog which does not recall or drop to the stop whistle is life or death, I know people who have lost their dog because it has chanced and not returned to either recall or dropped. I have lost count of the amount of people who have said to me on walks 'oh it comes back eventually' for me I can't accept that behaviour from my dog, it panics me to much, and I would be devasted if I lost my dog due to something like that.
I agree (and where I live a number of dogs have ended up beiing killed on the railway line as a result). I've developed a number of strategies to get mine back and still work on them as I know cockers take advantage if you become complacent
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But when I take them to the woods, you can pretty much forget it for the first 15 minutes or so. ::) They are off chasing squirrels and flushing pheasants to their hearts' content.
OH and I have argued over what to do in this situation. He says we shouldn't take them as it undoes all the work we have put into their recall. I think we shouldn't try to recall them for the first 15 minutes or so, and work on it for the rest of the walk. They are good on recall without major distractions, and it won't improve with distractions unless we work on it. :-\
What would you advise?
Bails is the same, I never recall him in the first 15 mins or so, there is no point he cannot here me!!! :lol: ph34r
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With Bayley just being released to go and do his thing after a few paces walking by my side is better than any food reward, but it might not always be the case.
You have to build up an understanding of what your dog wants at that moment in time and use it to your advantage.
This is so, so true. Bails doesn't want food when out either, he just wants his freedom and so that has become his reward. It was so difficult to get to the point where he understands that most of the time he will be released when he returns. :lol:
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Mark and Mich - I don't get how that works! :-\ You recall your dog and his reward for coming back is to be allowed to run off again. But he can stay free by not coming back. :-\ So where is the incentive there? Because if he doesn't come back when you call, you can't put him back on the lead anyway. :-\
Sorry if it is me being dense there. ph34r I'm not questioning that it works. Just wondering why/how. :huh:
I must say when I do recall my dogs in the woods, they really aren't interested in any treats I have anyway. You practically have to force food upon them. :005:
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Mark and Mich - I don't get how that works! :-\ You recall your dog and his reward for coming back is to be allowed to run off again. But he can stay free by not coming back. :-\ So where is the incentive there? Because if he doesn't come back when you call, you can't put him back on the lead anyway. :-\
Sorry if it is me being dense there. ph34r I'm not questioning that it works. Just wondering why/how. :huh:
I must say when I do recall my dogs in the woods, they really aren't interested in any treats I have anyway. You practically have to force food upon them. :005:
I so know what you mean hun!!! It's really hard for me to explain, (sure Mark will do a much better job!!! :lol:) basically, we had terrible trouble with Bails recall when he was a 'teenager' he wouldn't come back for anything - ever, we used to have to devise ways of catching him! :005:
Now he is much more responsive, but he is still not interested in food when out at all. So when I recall him I get him to sit,then down, get his attention on me and tell him what a wonderful boy he is and then send him away!
Re- reading my post I have not told you how it works at all! ph34r :005: :005: :005: Sorry!!! :lol:
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Mark and Mich - I don't get how that works! :-\ You recall your dog and his reward for coming back is to be allowed to run off again. But he can stay free by not coming back. :-\ So where is the incentive there? Because if he doesn't come back when you call, you can't put him back on the lead anyway. :-\
Sorry if it is me being dense there. ph34r I'm not questioning that it works. Just wondering why/how. :huh:
I must say when I do recall my dogs in the woods, they really aren't interested in any treats I have anyway. You practically have to force food upon them. :005:
My aim with Molo is to train an almost "involuntary recall" reaction......the best way to describe it is to compare it to some dogs reaction to a thrown ball. They instinctively chase the ball - no matter how tired they are or what else is on offer; it is just an automatic response. :)
Dogs can be taught to recall in the same way - they hear the whistle, or recall word - and there is an almost involuntary response to return - I have a long way to go with Molo ph34r
Once this level of recall is instilled then I imagine it is reinforced by allowing the dog to run off again when they are out running free.........?
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Mark and Mich - I don't get how that works! :-\ You recall your dog and his reward for coming back is to be allowed to run off again. But he can stay free by not coming back. :-\ So where is the incentive there? Because if he doesn't come back when you call, you can't put him back on the lead anyway. :-\
Sorry if it is me being dense there. ph34r I'm not questioning that it works. Just wondering why/how. :huh:
I must say when I do recall my dogs in the woods, they really aren't interested in any treats I have anyway. You practically have to force food upon them. :005:
The dogs reward was pleasing you by coming back. I think ph34r
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Mark and Mich - I don't get how that works! :-\ You recall your dog and his reward for coming back is to be allowed to run off again. But he can stay free by not coming back. :-\ So where is the incentive there? Because if he doesn't come back when you call, you can't put him back on the lead anyway. :-\
Sorry if it is me being dense there. ph34r I'm not questioning that it works. Just wondering why/how. :huh:
I must say when I do recall my dogs in the woods, they really aren't interested in any treats I have anyway. You practically have to force food upon them. :005:
The dogs reward was pleasing you by coming back. I think ph34r
Yes, my dogs are immediately rewarded by praise, or when they were training treats (as they were given the moment they sat at my feet), and I don't think mine see the released to go off again as part of this reward as they've already had the reward.
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All dogs are different Penny and Bayley is the only one of my three like this.
However running free is what he wants so i control what he wants and he only gets it when i say.
Douglas loves his raggy or rabbit dummy and oliver likes to sniff pee.
I use the go sniff cue to reward Oli.
You just need to find whatever floats your dogs boat and use it to your advantage.
I am working with a beautiful Tri coloured boy at the moment and he will do anything for one of his owners old bra's. :005:
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Bet you get some funny looks in the park with an old bra :005:
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My aim with Molo is to train an almost "involuntary recall" reaction......the best way to describe it is to compare it to some dogs reaction to a thrown ball. They instinctively chase the ball - no matter how tired they are or what else is on offer; it is just an automatic response. :)
Dogs can be taught to recall in the same way - they hear the whistle, or recall word - and there is an almost involuntary response to return
without sounding like I am showing off ph34r :shades:, that is how Hattie's (working cocker) recall is. It's like she is on a piece of elastic - she can't not turn when I blow the whistle - same for Barley (lurcher) too, but he was already trained like that when I got him. Tilly (show cocker) is about 98% like that, and Lola (english setter) about 95% - Gracie's is about 80% currently.... which frustrates me a lot, as I have a real "thing" about recall ::)
Anyway - I've read through the whole thread, and have a few comments....
my dogs are regularly handled using their scruffs - usually to gently guide them somewhere I want them to go - if they are not doing what I want them to do from just using my voice. For example, if I want to hoover, and I want them all in another room - I say "out" - usually they all go, but if one doesn't then she /he will be guided by their scruff - mine dont wear collars in the house. I actually prefer to use a scruff than drag by a collar which is what a lot of people would do. For me, a scruff is like a built in collar ;) used correctly it's a fantastic aid, used wrongly, it can be painful - like most things.... I don't handle Gracie by her scruff as she barely has one - being a whippety type, she has no spare skin. The gundogs and Barley don't even blink when I hold their scruffs.
I think a long line is a very useful aid - it means that the dog cannot fail to recall because you can reel it in..... s'no good saying don't let it fail - how can you stop a dog if it's running in the other direction - you can't, unless it's on a line.
I never let mine off the lead in a new place until I know where the roads are. Barley and Hattie are incredibly reliable and I can pretty much let them off anywhere (and have done when they are working on location with me). Gracie I don't let off anywhere new - the way I see it is this -better for her to have a safe walk on the lead or longline, than let her off for a run, and end up losing her.
(Steve Wanstall bred Hattie ....)
Positive reinforcement gets miles better results than negative training.
Anyone that thinks otherwise ought to try training a cat or a ferret ;)
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I am working with a beautiful Tri coloured boy at the moment and he will do anything for one of his owners old bra's. :005:
:005: :005: and I thought training Bails was bad! :lol:
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Perhaps bras are the key to Dyllan :005:
Anyway he was very good today when I took him. :luv:
I think we were lulled into a false sense of security as he had been so easy until this last week. I'm reading all the replies with interest and I'm grateful for your ideas.
Here is the fella in a butter wouldn't melt pose-
(http://www.snowcroft.co.uk/dyllan/tn008.jpg)
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All dogs are different Penny and Bayley is the only one of my three like this.
Couldn't agree more which is why I guess we all work out different strategies for different dogs (mine has been a learning curve based on stuff I've learnt from others, common sense and knowing my dogs)
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But when I take them to the woods, you can pretty much forget it for the first 15 minutes or so. ::) They are off chasing squirrels and flushing pheasants to their hearts' content.
Well they say not to recall the dog if you aren't 100% it will come back so I wouldn't for the first 15 mins. Therefore your aren't rienforcing any them ignoring you. I sure a friends paddocks on her farm for mochas free running, so lucky there.
This is a problem though when you are actually wanting to work the dog and is where I'm stuck on Alfie's 'working' training as he is similar
when he's in the woods or near heavy cover. Out in the open he's fine but as I've seen today when beating on a shoot you're very rarely out in the open and you can't just let the dog run without recall for 15 minutes because they will ruin the drive and quite rightly you'd probably be asked to leave.
Today, Tilly had to be 100% listening to me from the instant I let her off and she was, as was Dobbie with Freya and all the other beating dogs there but I know with Alfie he'd have hightailed it into the undergrowth and that would have been that. On an actual shoot you just don't have that 15 minutes to let them run about :-\ and I don't think letting Alfie run around elsewhere beforehand would make much of a difference as he'd still be excited by the new terrain and new smells and obviously you can't let the dog run around on the beating area before you start as they will frighten all the birds away!
It's a tough one this :huh:
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Perhaps bras are the key to Dyllan :005:
Anyway he was very good today when I took him. :luv:
I think we were lulled into a false sense of security as he had been so easy until this last week. I'm reading all the replies with interest and I'm grateful for your ideas.
Here is the fella in a butter wouldn't melt pose-
(http://www.snowcroft.co.uk/dyllan/tn008.jpg)
If you're really struggling I could take him off your hands :luv:
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But when I take them to the woods, you can pretty much forget it for the first 15 minutes or so. ::) They are off chasing squirrels and flushing pheasants to their hearts' content.
Well they say not to recall the dog if you aren't 100% it will come back so I wouldn't for the first 15 mins. Therefore your aren't rienforcing any them ignoring you. I sure a friends paddocks on her farm for mochas free running, so lucky there.
This is a problem though when you are actually wanting to work the dog and is where I'm stuck on Alfie's 'working' training as he is similar
when he's in the woods or near heavy cover. Out in the open he's fine but as I've seen today when beating on a shoot you're very rarely out in the open and you can't just let the dog run without recall for 15 minutes because they will ruin the drive and quite rightly you'd probably be asked to leave.
Today, Tilly had to be 100% listening to me from the instant I let her off and she was, as was Dobbie with Freya and all the other beating dogs there but I know with Alfie he'd have hightailed it into the undergrowth and that would have been that. On an actual shoot you just don't have that 15 minutes to let them run about :-\ and I don't think letting Alfie run around elsewhere beforehand would make much of a difference as he'd still be excited by the new terrain and new smells and obviously you can't let the dog run around on the beating area before you start as they will frighten all the birds away!
It's a tough one this :huh:
There is no way a dog would have fifteen minutes time to do what the hell he wanted with me.
The idea is that I control the good stuff in my dogs life and their access to it.
I find myself using the premack principle of you do something for me and I'll do something for you.
Come when called and you get food or a toy and get to go play again the dog can't lose.
But it has to be on my terms. If the dog won't come back they are not ready to be off the lead in that situation.
working cockers are clever dogs and will try and work you to their advantage, Bayley is comical when trying to enguage me and encourage me to do what he wants.
I think cockers are not the easiest dogs to own and they need consistent and strong leadership from their humans.
In my experience give a cocker an inch and if you don't watch it they'll have their own personal dogs body to pamper and pander their every whim.
You wouldn't catch me doing that ;) HONEST! :005:
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But when I take them to the woods, you can pretty much forget it for the first 15 minutes or so. ::) They are off chasing squirrels and flushing pheasants to their hearts' content.
There is no way a dog would have fifteen minutes time to do what the hell he wanted with me.
If the dog won't come back they are not ready to be off the lead in that situation.
So do I not take them to the woods then? :huh:
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working cockers are clever dogs and will try and work you to their advantage, Bayley is comical when trying to enguage me and encourage me to do what he wants.
I think cockers are not the easiest dogs to own and they need consistent and strong leadership from their humans.
I have just found the website of Graigour Gundogs (http://www.graigour.com/training-facilities.htm) which includes a brilliant "training diary" of a working cocker called "Tessa the Toerag" - the diary describes his perception of the unique traits of cocker when compared to other gundogs (it is easier to get a yorkshireman to buy a round of drinks that a cocker to sit/stay :005:)
He also says that the basics of cocker training is to keep everything a game - and he describes only positive training methods in the spaniel diary ;)
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Perhaps bras are the key to Dyllan :005:
Anyway he was very good today when I took him. :luv:
I think we were lulled into a false sense of security as he had been so easy until this last week. I'm reading all the replies with interest and I'm grateful for your ideas.
Here is the fella in a butter wouldn't melt pose-
(http://www.snowcroft.co.uk/dyllan/tn008.jpg)
If you're really struggling I could take him off your hands :luv:
just what I was thinking :luv:
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It all depends on how vital you view a good recall to be.
Take him to the woods by all means but why not go to train your recall?
As has been suggested use a long line and proof your recall before you let him off.
I did not let Bayley off the long line for nearly six months.
I could have taken the chance sooner you might argue but i wanted to be sure.
I didn't want 99% chance I wanted 100%
Personaly, if I could not get my dog back in the woods then i would train like mad until I could, in the meantime I would stay in control with a line.
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working cockers are clever dogs and will try and work you to their advantage, Bayley is comical when trying to enguage me and encourage me to do what he wants.
I think cockers are not the easiest dogs to own and they need consistent and strong leadership from their humans.
I have just found the website of Graigour Gundogs (http://www.graigour.com/training-facilities.htm) which includes a brilliant "training diary" of a working cocker called "Tessa the Toerag" - the diary describes his perception of the unique traits of cocker when compared to other gundogs (it is easier to get a yorkshireman to buy a round of drinks that a cocker to sit/stay :005:)
He also says that the basics of cocker training is to keep everything a game - and he describes only positive training methods in the spaniel diary ;)
Steady on Rachel, I'm a Proud Yorkshireman, but i love the comparrison :005:
Tessa is the spit of my bayley and she even sounds the same sort of character.
Did you notice he uses allowing the dog to hunt as a reward.
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Well said Top Barks I'm a Yorkshire woman!
But I think the comparison is just right!
I've just ordered my long line :D
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(it is easier to get a yorkshireman to buy a round of drinks that a cocker to sit/stay :005:)
soo true - it's been the hardest thing with Hattie.....
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Just read that diary thingy - it's good....
he says this in part four
Now for the important bit - most training manuals tell you to get hold of the dog by the scruff of the neck and haul it back to your original starting position if it moves off. However, with proper cockers, this simply just does not work - you have to avoid conflict at all times - no heavy handed tactics. To train a cocker properly, you have to con them into whatever it is you want them to do.
:lol:
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Just read that diary thingy - it's good....
he says this in part four
Now for the important bit - most training manuals tell you to get hold of the dog by the scruff of the neck and haul it back to your original starting position if it moves off. However, with proper cockers, this simply just does not work - you have to avoid conflict at all times - no heavy handed tactics. To train a cocker properly, you have to con them into whatever it is you want them to do.
:lol:
My point exactly, what a wise man :D
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you have to con them
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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(it is easier to get a yorkshireman to buy a round of drinks that a cocker to sit/stay :005:)
soo true - it's been the hardest thing with Hattie.....
what, getting a yorkshire man to buy a round of drinks :005:
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Just read that diary thingy - it's good....
he says this in part four
Now for the important bit - most training manuals tell you to get hold of the dog by the scruff of the neck and haul it back to your original starting position if it moves off. However, with proper cockers, this simply just does not work - you have to avoid conflict at all times - no heavy handed tactics. To train a cocker properly, you have to con them into whatever it is you want them to do.
:lol:
Re this and the stuff about using games to train them etc. it makes you wonder about some trainers whether they all understand the way to at least get their head round training cockers or to pass that info on to owners.
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I'm sure there's lots of trainers that don't but when you own a breed and live with one you get to know the ins and outs of breed specific behaviour and characters.
lots of dogs need training, lots of breeds so for the breeds you don't know so well, it's a case of reading up and applying general canine language and training techniques.
Dogs teach us so much and i learn everytime I work with different breeds.
I as a trainer would not claim to know the breed specific behavioural traits of all different dogs.
I muddle through with learning theory and watch the dog and get to know it as we go along.
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Definitely - spaniels are so different to setters, and both are sooo different to lurchers - and even then - the different crosses within lurchers are sooooo different.... Gracie has whippet and bedlington terrier in her - never again ph34r - whereas Barley, lurcher x lurcher :luv: soo easy to train :D
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I'm sure there's lots of trainers that don't but when you own a breed and live with one you get to know the ins and outs of breed specific behaviour and characters.
lots of dogs need training, lots of breeds so for the breeds you don't know so well, it's a case of reading up and applying general canine language and training techniques.
Dogs teach us so much and i learn everytime I work with different breeds.
I as a trainer would not claim to know the breed specific behavioural traits of all different dogs.
I muddle through with learning theory and watch the dog and get to know it as we go along.
I agree but you really have to dig deep to find this sort of stuff on cockers and often the average pet owner will go to see a trainer and I must admit I have found mixed reactions from them re cocker. I think the problem also is that the expectation is that they're an easy breed as how hard can it be to train one (people also lump them together with springers and other gundog breeds). In the same way if anyone asks me re rehoming cockers I will often only send them/point them in the direction of certain rescues --- someone I know who's been in rescue for a long time has learnt a lot recently re cockers and is amazed she never realised it before.
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I can only go from my own experiences and I have not had a problem with recall with the Cockers that I have owned from puppies.I introduced the whistle from an early state,first getting them to sit with the open palm signal and then a blast on the whistle(this comes into it's own later when teaching them to stop/sit at a distance). You can also start using the recall whistle whilst they are still young,start in the garden with multiple pips until they come right back to you.You must give the right body signals to encourage your pup to return to you,get down to it's level and smile!, give it a fuss and a "good dog", this should be all the reward it needs.When you let your dog off lead don't allow it to just run off,make it sit and and only go when you release it with a voice or hand signal.If you start at an early stage you should get good recall, get a good bond with your dog and it will want to be with you.
I may sound pompous in this but it is my experience and I am having the same results with Bailey who I had as a rescue dog last
November.I am not hard on my dogs (I am classed as "soft" by the local shooting/Gundog fraternity) everything they have done for me has been done out of love.
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Just to add another dimension, I was out today on the marshes with a friend and her lab and pointer, mochas recall was 100% ( amased to say the least !) I was very nervous, we were up on the bank and could see across the marshs so for once I could actually see what he did at distance when I recalled him (as we are often in the woods and I am not always sure whether he is ignoring me or has gone further than I thought but did turn when called ) Now I don't like him going far and the lab and pointer only ventured 30 feet infront of there owner, but mocha went much further but still recalled when I pipped him and when I say recalled he was turning on a nine pence. My friend was amased as I am always going on how bad his recall was. So today recall 100% but far to far away from me, so how do I get him to play within my comfort zone, do I just pip him back at my limit or will that just hack him off being called all the time. After about 4 recalls I put him back on the lead and finished with success, as I always have that feeling he will become to confident and bolt.
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What do you do to make him want to be around you Anita?
I never let Bayley go out of my comfort zone until i was relaxed enough with him to go further As long as the reward is right then it worked ok with him.
Does he like to hunt?
If so lots of hunting games or find it for food bits.
Mine are easy and i can usualy tease them with a favourite toy.
I do lots of tricks, stop whistles and very often i won't walk anywhere when on the common I just let my dogs work and play around me.i am constantly watching them and interacting with them.
i also use tone of voice to let them know when they have gone as far away as i'd like.
You need to have something or control something mocha enjoys,Will he retrieve a rabbit dummy?
Sounds like you have a very indipendent little chap.
Well done on the recall at distance, some people would give their high teeth for that.
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Blimey - I pretty much let mine do whatever they like on a walk, with the occasional recall :lol: for me, their walks are pretty much their own time to run around and do what they want to do, as long as they come back when I want.... maybe I've got complacent :005:
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Blimey - I pretty much let mine do whatever they like on a walk, with the occasional recall :lol: for me, their walks are pretty much their own time to run around and do what they want to do, as long as they come back when I want....
I'm sooo glad you said that. :D I was beginning to think I'd got everything wrong. ph34r
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Blimey - I pretty much let mine do whatever they like on a walk, with the occasional recall :lol: for me, their walks are pretty much their own time to run around and do what they want to do, as long as they come back when I want....
I'm sooo glad you said that. :D I was beginning to think I'd got everything wrong. ph34r
I think the thing is people get worried when they see people doing other stuff differently but if its not broke don't fix it.
I know Mark has recall problems with Bayley so makes sense to do something more about other than just call them doesn't it. Many people on here have problems so they ask for strategies to deal with it but if you don't have problem then you don't need to bother do you.
I do stuff on my walks as they love the games I play with them, which can't be done in the house
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I think the thing is people get worried when they see people doing other stuff differently but if its not broke don't fix it.
I know Mark has recall problems with Bayley so makes sense to do something more about other than just call them doesn't it. Many people on here have problems so they ask for strategies to deal with it but if you don't have problem then you don't need to bother do you.
I do stuff on my walks as they love the games I play with them, which can't be done in the house
On our normal walk, their recall is very good - not perfect but nearly there. :angel:
I try to play games - we have balls on ropes, chuck its, squeaky toys - but they are usually more interested in sniffing. ::) They will chase the ball, but usually not bother bringing it back. They will chase me, but I can't run for the whole walk. ph34r
It is only when we go to the woods that there recall is a problem for the first 15 minutes or so. I'm happy to let them run for this time as I know they are safe and that after the initial excitement they will come back. OH thinks it will undo their recall, but I don't try to recall them as I know it won't work.
Just wondered if it was the right thing to do. :-\
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It is only when we go to the woods that there recall is a problem for the first 15 minutes or so. I'm happy to let them run for this time as I know they are safe and that after the initial excitement they will come back. OH thinks it will undo their recall, but I don't try to recall them as I know it won't work.
Just wondered if it was the right thing to do. :-\
If you're always going to walk them in that bit and you're happy with the situation as you know they're safe then its best to do what you feel suits you anyway.
I guess I don't walk anywhere where I would feel secure in doing this but then thats because of where I walk mine so I have to keep them close-ish but that doesn't stop them having fun though
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If you're always going to walk them in that bit and you're happy with the situation as you know they're safe then its best to do what you feel suits you anyway.
Thank you. :D
It is only in this one place that I let them wander as it is secure and totally isolated. I wouldn't dream of letting them have so much freedom anywhere else.
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If you're always going to walk them in that bit and you're happy with the situation as you know they're safe then its best to do what you feel suits you anyway.
Thank you. :D
It is only in this one place that I let them wander as it is secure and totally isolated. I wouldn't dream of letting them have so much freedom anywhere else.
are you always going to walk them here though --- am only thinking as if you went elsewhere and this happened could it be a problem
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are you always going to walk them here though --- am only thinking as if you went elsewhere and this happened could it be a problem
No. Our usual walk is around the local playing fields which only has a small area of trees and their recall is very good there. We also have two other walks where their recall is good.
We have only been to this particular wood 4 or 5 times, but they love going there and run continually for the whole time we are there. We walk them on lead into the centre of the woods and then let them off, so they are well away from the roads. And we have never met anyone else up there.
It is just so nice to see them enjoying themselves, that it would be a shame to stop taking them. But I would if people more experienced and better qualified than me thought it would ruin their recall.
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working cockers are clever dogs and will try and work you to their advantage, Bayley is comical when trying to enguage me and encourage me to do what he wants.
I think cockers are not the easiest dogs to own and they need consistent and strong leadership from their humans.
I have just found the website of Graigour Gundogs (http://www.graigour.com/training-facilities.htm) which includes a brilliant "training diary" of a working cocker called "Tessa the Toerag" - the diary describes his perception of the unique traits of cocker when compared to other gundogs (it is easier to get a yorkshireman to buy a round of drinks that a cocker to sit/stay :005:)
He also says that the basics of cocker training is to keep everything a game - and he describes only positive training methods in the spaniel diary ;)
I am currently doing some research to find a good gundog trainer who will take both me and Alfie for lessons. This one is on my shortlist as it's not too far a drive from where I live... He is expensive but I am trying to negotiate a package so I will let you know if we go to see him! :D
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Just wanted to thank everyone for all the interesting posts. Twix at 9 months is not great on the recall front and it is reassuring to hear that others are having the same problems and how you all are dealing with them. My last spaniel did not really fully get the hang of recall until she was almost 18 months, so I can assure those who are having problems with younger dogs too that it does all fall into place eventually as long as you keep persisting with the training.