CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Specific Discussion => Behaviour & Training => Topic started by: RachelA on February 23, 2011, 09:08:29 PM
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Just been to enrol at puppy training classes and they recommended we use half check collars. Just wondered what COLers think of these?
We use a normal collar and lead or harness at the moment with Lela. When she is her normal self (been poorly) she does pull a lot.
Thanks,
Rachel
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I'm not a fan - I prefer harnesses over flat collars and wouldn't want to use a half check at all as it encourages you to jerk the dog's neck around which can cause damage to the vertebrae. Pups especially have very delicate necks and pulling on a collar causes them to brace through the neck. If you then yank them back you can cause whiplash-like injuries. The dog may not show he is in pain but it can impact on behaviour.
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No experience whatsoever but I've read a book ;) what about a gentle leader? I don't even know what one is but would like to hear opinions of others.
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Agree with Claire - I definitely would not use one >:(
I used a Gentle Leader with Coco when she was younger - it did work quite well but she hated it and I gave up eventually. She still pulls sometimes but I would still never use a choke chain or half check :-\
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I don't know if this is true, but I was told by a dog trainer that was very high up in the met police's training team that half check's were a huge money making swindle and didn't do anything.. but were designed to sell to the market that couldn't quite bring themselves to use a proper check chain. Now this was coming from a man that had used check chains 'properly' (not my thing) during his career with the Met. He said that someone invented the half check to be the 'soft' option to the normal check chain and it was a complete waste of time and a 'bad' thing as a normal check chain used 'properly' is designed to press on a dogs nerves behind their ears (not strangle them).. the half check can't do that so just yanks dogs necks around.
I don't like either tbh and would much rather focus on training a dog to walk nicely on a normal flat collar.
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Have to say, I was surprised when the trainer recommended the half check collar. I'm starting to question whether these classes will be right for us, they seem a bit 'old fashioned'. But I'll give them a try and see how we go!
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There do still seem to be quite a lot of classes that still use outdated and negative training methods. >:(
If you are not 100% happy with their methods then you should definitely feel able to leave and find another class ;)
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If I'd gone to a puppy class with Alfie and they'd recommended one of those collars, I wouldn't have gone back again.
Have a look for one of these: it's a Halti harness which you use with a Halti double-ended lead that clips to the chest and shoulder rings. I didn't know about them when I got Alfie, and would definitely have used one from the start if I had.
http://www.vetuk.co.uk/dog-accessories-dog-harness-dog-muzzels-c-628_408/halti-training-dog-harness-p-2726 (http://www.vetuk.co.uk/dog-accessories-dog-harness-dog-muzzels-c-628_408/halti-training-dog-harness-p-2726)
I'd definitely suggest this particular Halti (based on recommendations from folk here) or another harness - and a different puppy class....
Do they say their training is reward-based?
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A half check collar is just a training tool and any tool can be misused and/or abused. I don't have issues with half check collars as long as they are used appropriately. I don't ever think it's appropriate to use them on a puppy.
A dog should never be corrected for things it doesn't understand are expected of it and of course a puppy doesn't know better. This is the age when you're teaching behaviors and making it fun for them. Proofing behaviors comes much later down the road.
Any good trainer would never recommend something as a fix all solution. Every dog is different and every situation is different so feel free to ignore their recommendation and find other ways that work better for you and your dog.
I don't know if this is true, but I was told by a dog trainer that was very high up in the met police's training team that half check's were a huge money making swindle and didn't do anything.. but were designed to sell to the market that couldn't quite bring themselves to use a proper check chain. Now this was coming from a man that had used check chains 'properly' (not my thing) during his career with the Met. He said that someone invented the half check to be the 'soft' option to the normal check chain and it was a complete waste of time and a 'bad' thing as a normal check chain used 'properly' is designed to press on a dogs nerves behind their ears (not strangle them).. the half check can't do that so just yanks dogs necks around.
That's funny. Honestly, I wouldn't trust anything regarding training dogs from a K9 police unit. The best police dogs aren't trained by the police, they are bought already trained by protection dog sport trainers. Pluto, the worst police dog in the world, was probably trained by a police dog trainer.
I always thought that half checks were essentially martingale collars, which were invented for breeds with smaller heads so that they wouldn't back out of them. I'm sure, however, that it was marketed to the public as a more humane version of the check chain since there is a limit to how tight it can get around a dog's neck.
The reason check chains are positioned high up on the neck and behind the ears is so that it doesn't block a dog's airway when tightened and also so that it can compress the brachial nerve, but honestly, how different is that compared to the Halti head collar that presses on the sensitive facial nerves? You're never supposed to yank a dog's neck around with either the check or half check.
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If I'd gone to a puppy class with Alfie and they'd recommended one of those collars, I wouldn't have gone back again.
Have a look for one of these: it's a Halti harness which you use with a Halti double-ended lead that clips to the chest and shoulder rings. I didn't know about them when I got Alfie, and would definitely have used one from the start if I had.
http://www.vetuk.co.uk/dog-accessories-dog-harness-dog-muzzels-c-628_408/halti-training-dog-harness-p-2726 (http://www.vetuk.co.uk/dog-accessories-dog-harness-dog-muzzels-c-628_408/halti-training-dog-harness-p-2726)
I'd definitely suggest this particular Halti (based on recommendations from folk here) or another harness - and a different puppy class....
Do they say their training is reward-based?
I use one of these with Skye. It gives two points of control without putting pressure on the neck. We still do shorter training walks on a flat collar and standard lead, but for longer walks the halti takes the stress out of the situation. ;) Hopefully as she gets older (she is 18mths) and we work hard on loose lead walking, we may not need the halti but for now it is a great help.
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Have to say, I was surprised when the trainer recommended the half check collar. I'm starting to question whether these classes will be right for us, they seem a bit 'old fashioned'. But I'll give them a try and see how we go!
I Can't comment regarding half check collars but I would definately say go with your instincts regarding your trainers. I didn't trust my instincts with my first dog and wasted several months trying to teach him 'their' way. A good trainer is one that will work with you and your dog to find the style of training that is right for both of you
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I don't know if this is true, but I was told by a dog trainer that was very high up in the met police's training team that half check's were a huge money making swindle and didn't do anything.. but were designed to sell to the market that couldn't quite bring themselves to use a proper check chain. Now this was coming from a man that had used check chains 'properly' (not my thing) during his career with the Met. He said that someone invented the half check to be the 'soft' option to the normal check chain and it was a complete waste of time and a 'bad' thing as a normal check chain used 'properly' is designed to press on a dogs nerves behind their ears (not strangle them).. the half check can't do that so just yanks dogs necks around.
That's funny. Honestly, I wouldn't trust anything regarding training dogs from a K9 police unit. The best police dogs aren't trained by the police, they are bought already trained by protection dog sport trainers. Pluto, the worst police dog in the world, was probably trained by a police dog trainer.
The trainer I talked to had just retired as head of training for the Met. I suspect he knew a thing or two about handling and training police dogs ;) My FIL is also a retired police dog handler and interestingly, he was also given all his dogs as puppies to train and live his family - they we're certainly not bought in ready trained from outside. Things may have changed now but the information I have was from older school trainers. I don't like most of the methods used to train police dogs and would never use them with my dogs. I'd contacted the above trainer with a view to getting help with a difficult dog that I rehomed nearly 4 years ago as he 'specialises' in large dogs with aggression issues but after finding out more about his approach and methods, including the check chains decided it wasn't for us. This was where my info for the half check collar came from also as the dog I'd rehomed came with one and even he said to take her out of it.... Martingales are IMO more risky than normal flat collars, I've lost a dog out of a Martingale but never a flat collar unless it's snapped!
You're never supposed to yank a dog's neck around with either the check or half check.
No, but unfortunately, this is how they mostly end up being used.... The 'snap' that is supposed to press on the nerves behind a dogs ears when a normal check chain is high up on a dogs neck is very difficult to get right and obviously with a half check doesn't happen at all, which is what he was talking about... hence the half check being a soft option gimmick that is likely to end up being misused. :-\
To the OP I would only really be wanting to attend a class that aimed to promote positive heel work training on a normal flat collar.. Be interesting to hear why your trainer suggests half checks?
Normy had also been walked in a head collar device before I got her and I'm convinced that that was also a big factor in contributing towards her fear aggression - although I appreciate it works well for some dogs. She now walks very nicely in a normal flat collar :luv:
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I don't know if this is true, but I was told by a dog trainer that was very high up in the met police's training team that half check's were a huge money making swindle and didn't do anything.. but were designed to sell to the market that couldn't quite bring themselves to use a proper check chain. Now this was coming from a man that had used check chains 'properly' (not my thing) during his career with the Met. He said that someone invented the half check to be the 'soft' option to the normal check chain and it was a complete waste of time and a 'bad' thing as a normal check chain used 'properly' is designed to press on a dogs nerves behind their ears (not strangle them).. the half check can't do that so just yanks dogs necks around.
That's funny. Honestly, I wouldn't trust anything regarding training dogs from a K9 police unit. The best police dogs aren't trained by the police, they are bought already trained by protection dog sport trainers. Pluto, the worst police dog in the world, was probably trained by a police dog trainer.
The trainer I talked to had just retired as head of training for the Met. I suspect he knew a thing or two about handling and training police dogs ;) My FIL is also a retired police dog handler and interestingly, he was also given all his dogs as puppies to train and live his family - they we're certainly not bought in ready trained from outside. Things may have changed now but the information I have was from older school trainers. I don't like most of the methods used to train police dogs and would never use them with my dogs. I'd contacted the above trainer with a view to getting help with a difficult dog that I rehomed nearly 4 years ago as he 'specialises' in large dogs with aggression issues but after finding out more about his approach and methods, including the check chains decided it wasn't for us. This was where my info for the half check collar came from also as the dog I'd rehomed came with one and even he said to take her out of it.... Martingales are IMO more risky than normal flat collars, I've lost a dog out of a Martingale but never a flat collar unless it's snapped!
One of my friends is a Police Dog Handler.....the training he has is very thorough and he is always going away with his dogs on training courses throughout the year.....and his dog is lovely and well adjusted.....and he rehomed one of his previous police dogs with himself.......I have only ever seen him use positive re-enforcements and they all wear normal collars ;)
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If I'd gone to a puppy class with Alfie and they'd recommended one of those collars, I wouldn't have gone back again.
Have a look for one of these: it's a Halti harness which you use with a Halti double-ended lead that clips to the chest and shoulder rings. I didn't know about them when I got Alfie, and would definitely have used one from the start if I had.
http://www.vetuk.co.uk/dog-accessories-dog-harness-dog-muzzels-c-628_408/halti-training-dog-harness-p-2726 (http://www.vetuk.co.uk/dog-accessories-dog-harness-dog-muzzels-c-628_408/halti-training-dog-harness-p-2726)
I'd definitely suggest this particular Halti (based on recommendations from folk here) or another harness - and a different puppy class....
Do they say their training is reward-based?
I use one of these with Skye. It gives two points of control without putting pressure on the neck. We still do shorter training walks on a flat collar and standard lead, but for longer walks the halti takes the stress out of the situation. ;) Hopefully as she gets older (she is 18mths) and we work hard on loose lead walking, we may not need the halti but for now it is a great help.
I have used/sometimes use a halti harness with Teva, they are great :D After continuous use for about a month, I tried her without the harnes and just the flat collar and she did very well, with mininmal pulling!
Isaac, my Vizsla wears a half check collar. I did not use it until he could walk to heal. I use it for convenience as he does not wear a collar in the house, it is too big for him so it does not actually 'close'! Would never use one on a puppy, and probably not with a hairy dog as the chain would catch in the fur :shades: JMHO
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1068/1384685467_68ae6ccfea_m.jpg)
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The concept of having two points of contact comes from TTouch training - we focus less on whether the dog pulls and more on whether it walks in balance (if it pulls then it's relying on you to balance it). By having two points of contact you can alternate which one you give signals on so they cannot rely on leaning into one or the other. It's important to stay up by the dog's shoulder and give light, UPWARD signals - as soon as you pull back you trigger the opposition reflex and the dog automatically pulls forward.
Thankfully a few manufacturers have taken up this idea now - Xtradog now do fleece harnesses with a ring on the chest as well as the back having worked closely with Sarah Fisher. There are also Mekuti harnesses (she is a TTouch practitioner) and the new TTouch harnesses :-)
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With my pups I used one of the dog-games fleece lined harnesses to begin with and our puppy classes would not allow anything other than a flat collar. I've only started using a harness now that my dogs are older (2 years and up) and its only when I'm walking more than one dog. Individually they will all walk nicely on the lead, but when I have all four it just gives me a little more control especially when we had very icy weather.
Personally I think any type of check collar is a bit harsh for a puppy.
The harness that we use is similar in principle to the Mekuti
http://www.friendsoffido.co.uk/easy-walk-harness-mediumlarge-i19.html
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I was at a KC conformation training day recently where the trainer was saying that choke/half check collars both had the potential to damage the dogs neck and permanently affect its head carriage. :o TBH, have used them on the past on adults but would not now. :-\
I use a halti on the springer (he is a huge, very strong 25kg boy) - and it works well.
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Thanks everyone. I don't think half check collars are right for us. I was just surprised the trainer recommended them. Your replies have made me question even more whether the course is right for us. Its run by a charity and is very popular, huge waiting list. Maybe because it is so cheap - £20 for 14 weeks! We live in Harrogate. Don't suppose anyone knows any good classes in our area? I'll probably go along anyway if I can't find any more - and if I don't like their methods - won't use them!
Lela's recall is generally very good, unless she sees a bird >:D and she is very well behaved otherwise. She does pull on the lead though. So not sure how much training we need? But it would be great fun for her (and me!) I guess.
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Have you tried these people at all?
http://www.tailwaggerclub.com/ (http://www.tailwaggerclub.com/)
(I haven't any personal experience of them; I just googled "reward-based dog training Harrogate")
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Have you tried these people at all?
http://www.tailwaggerclub.com/ (http://www.tailwaggerclub.com/)
(I haven't any personal experience of them; I just googled "reward-based dog training Harrogate")
Thanks Mooching - they look good. I'll definitely contact them.
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Have you looked on the A.P.D.T. website?
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really recommend the tailwagger club, i go with both my dogs (badger who's nearly 4 now and has completed his kennel club awards right through to gold with the club and my pup Bella is working towards the kc silver award at the moment)they only use reward based training and are a really friendly bunch of people!
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Re. Praia's comment about police dog training, I think she's from America so perhaps they do things differently there ;)
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The trainer I talked to had just retired as head of training for the Met. I suspect he knew a thing or two about handling and training police dogs ;) My FIL is also a retired police dog handler and interestingly, he was also given all his dogs as puppies to train and live his family - they we're certainly not bought in ready trained from outside.
Hannah, we have a friend who has just retired from Hampshire Police who was a police dog handler, and that's how it always been with him as well - that the dogs come to them as pups, live in the home and are trained by the officers who use them at police dog training school. We've known him a great number of years and he's had several dogs over that time and they've always been with him at his home.
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I was at a KC conformation training day recently where the trainer was saying that choke/half check collars both had the potential to damage the dogs neck and permanently affect its head carriage. :o TBH, have used them on the past on adults but would not now. :-\
I use a halti on the springer (he is a huge, very strong 25kg boy) - and it works well.
halti's can also cause damage to neck and spine if the head is jerked and so can flat collars (and flat collars can cause larynx and trachea damage).
not saying that I approve of choke chains or half checks here, only mentioning that other 'tool's' can also damage a dog.
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Thanks everyone. I don't think half check collars are right for us. I was just surprised the trainer recommended them. Your replies have made me question even more whether the course is right for us. Its run by a charity and is very popular, huge waiting list. Maybe because it is so cheap - £20 for 14 weeks! We live in Harrogate. Don't suppose anyone knows any good classes in our area? I'll probably go along anyway if I can't find any more - and if I don't like their methods - won't use them!
Lela's recall is generally very good, unless she sees a bird >:D and she is very well behaved otherwise. She does pull on the lead though. So not sure how much training we need? But it would be great fun for her (and me!) I guess.
Sounds like SOS dog training? If so avoid them like the plague.
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Thanks everyone. I don't think half check collars are right for us. I was just surprised the trainer recommended them. Your replies have made me question even more whether the course is right for us. Its run by a charity and is very popular, huge waiting list. Maybe because it is so cheap - £20 for 14 weeks! We live in Harrogate. Don't suppose anyone knows any good classes in our area? I'll probably go along anyway if I can't find any more - and if I don't like their methods - won't use them!
Lela's recall is generally very good, unless she sees a bird >:D and she is very well behaved otherwise. She does pull on the lead though. So not sure how much training we need? But it would be great fun for her (and me!) I guess.
Sounds like SOS dog training? If so avoid them like the plague.
Not SOS its Harrogate Road Safety Dog Training
http://www.hrsdtc.co.uk/
Any views on them?
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Never heard of them but looking at their Site it looks like a traditional obedience club. As you say it is very cheap. Just don't do anything you don't agree with. Sounds like the sort of,place I used to go to 20 years ago.
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The trainer I talked to had just retired as head of training for the Met. I suspect he knew a thing or two about handling and training police dogs ;) My FIL is also a retired police dog handler and interestingly, he was also given all his dogs as puppies to train and live his family - they we're certainly not bought in ready trained from outside.
Hannah, we have a friend who has just retired from Hampshire Police who was a police dog handler, and that's how it always been with him as well - that the dogs come to them as pups, live in the home and are trained by the officers who use them at police dog training school. We've known him a great number of years and he's had several dogs over that time and they've always been with him at his home.
Not sure its thats the case for all officers as our force is asking for puppy walkers. The role involes looking after the dog for 18months and includes putting in some basic training before the proper training starts.
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I use half check collars on Spike and Domino at the end of a walk as a means of attaching their leads to them.
The reason is because my hands and fingers are very stiff and particularly in the cold weather I find it hard to fiddle around with clips onto their collars. The half check enables me to just put the leads over their heads.
It doesn't tighten too much around their necks and I've never had any problem with it hurting their necks; I would never consider a choke chain under any circumstances though. If I have to put them on their leads for any length of time I always use their harnesses.
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We used a half check on Nell (lab) because she had an uncanny nack of backing out of her collar and charging off to say hello to anyone and everyone ph34r it kept her safe that was the main thing, we never had a problem with it hurting her neck while we were using it.
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I definately agree it depends on what it is being used for... if it's for convenience of getting lead back on, there's no issue at all.
If it's being used as a training tool I'm rather more sceptical... especially for puppies. :-\ The classes I help at insist on flat collar and lead for loose lead walking, and owners can use a harness for other exercises if they would prefer... :D
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You're never supposed to yank a dog's neck around with either the check or half check.
No, but unfortunately, this is how they mostly end up being used.... The 'snap' that is supposed to press on the nerves behind a dogs ears when a normal check chain is high up on a dogs neck is very difficult to get right and obviously with a half check doesn't happen at all, which is what he was talking about... hence the half check being a soft option gimmick that is likely to end up being misused. :-\
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All training tools can be misused. Just because some people are too stupid to read directions and use a tool appropriately doesn't mean that a tool is entirely worthless. Even a flat buckle collar can do serious damage to a dog's trachea, much more than a check chain or a half check ever could because of their position on the neck and because with these tools pressure is distributed more evenly around the dog's entire neck. Even halti and gentle leader head collars can damage dog's eyes, seriously injure necks and spines, and in one case I've personally heard of from someone who worked rescue, killed a dog when it lunged while having a head collar on. Every tool is capable of doing more harm than good and it's every dog owners personal responsibility to educate themselves on how to use them correctly and appropriately.
In this specific case, I feel that using a half check would be completely inappropriate on a puppy. For other cases, as long as it's used correctly and appropriately, i think do whatever you think is best for your dog.
I suppose things with the K9 unit are different here in the US. Personally, I'm fine with the training methods they use for their dogs, though there's no reason to use the same correction levels needed on a working line GSD or a Belgian Malinois on a Cocker Spaniel. Those are dogs with different temperaments and mid levels of social aggression, different drives (prey, fight, and defense drives), and hardness in character that require specialized training. My personal understanding of dogs trained for this field is from people who train personal protection and military patrol dogs. At least here in the US, proper working GSDs and Malinois must be purchased overseas as proven lines here for these fields of work are nonexistent. Of course, all these dogs can be retired to appropriate homes as dogs in this field must have stable temperaments, solid nerves, and be clear headed to work in the first place.
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You're never supposed to yank a dog's neck around with either the check or half check.
No, but unfortunately, this is how they mostly end up being used.... The 'snap' that is supposed to press on the nerves behind a dogs ears when a normal check chain is high up on a dogs neck is very difficult to get right and obviously with a half check doesn't happen at all, which is what he was talking about... hence the half check being a soft option gimmick that is likely to end up being misused. :-\
All training tools can be misused. Just because some people are too stupid to read directions and use a tool appropriately doesn't mean that a tool is entirely worthless. Even a flat buckle collar can do serious damage to a dog's trachea, much more than a check chain or a half check ever could because of their position on the neck and because with these tools pressure is distributed more evenly around the dog's entire neck. Even halti and gentle leader head collars can damage dog's eyes, seriously injure necks and spines, and in one case I've personally heard of from someone who worked rescue, killed a dog when it lunged while having a head collar on. Every tool is capable of doing more harm than good and it's every dog owners personal responsibility to educate themselves on how to use them correctly and appropriately.
In this specific case, I feel that using a half check would be completely inappropriate on a puppy. For other cases, as long as it's used correctly and appropriately, i think do whatever you think is best for your dog.
I suppose things with the K9 unit are different here in the US. Personally, I'm fine with the training methods they use for their dogs, though there's no reason to use the same correction levels needed on a working line GSD or a Belgian Malinois on a Cocker Spaniel. Those are dogs with different temperaments and mid levels of social aggression, different drives (prey, fight, and defense drives), and hardness in character that require specialized training. My personal understanding of dogs trained for this field is from people who train personal protection and military patrol dogs. At least here in the US, proper working GSDs and Malinois must be purchased overseas as proven lines here for these fields of work are nonexistent. Of course, all these dogs can be retired to appropriate homes as dogs in this field must have stable temperaments, solid nerves, and be clear headed to work in the first place.
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Ah, I didn't realise you were in the US, yes I'm sure it is very different there to the UK. Could you eleborate on the bit I've highlighted, I'm interested know what you mean?
With regard to the general misuse of any training tool, I totally agree.. but it's the association with a check chain (which most people don't know how to use 'correctly' anyway) that leads to problems with a half check IF it's bought and used as a corrective collar.
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Regarding my comment on correction levels, I wrote that in response to you saying that you didn't like most of the methods used to train police dogs and would never use them with your own dogs. I use the same training method as a gentleman I know who trains personal protection dogs - teach with positive reinforcement, proof behaviors with corrections. We follow the same basic principle of balance and fairness, of being as gentle as possible, but as firm as necessary; but the firmness of the corrections he is sometimes required to give to his dogs would be outright cruelty if used on my own.
If bred true to type, GSDs and Malinois are hard dogs and Cocker Spaniels are soft dogs. What may be required to correct a hard dog would make a soft dog exhibit avoidance behavior and completely shut down. Normally a firm word from me is a good enough correction for my spaniel. A firm word would not work on a working type GSD that is operating in fight drive mode (fight drive meaning the dog knows it can take down a grown man and it wants to do so/he loves the fight and knows that he can win it), firmly latched onto a bite work helper, and won't out when told by his handler. When you have a high drive hard dog, higher levels of compulsion are sometimes required to correct and control a dog.
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All training tools can be misused. Just because some people are too stupid to read directions and use a tool appropriately doesn't mean that a tool is entirely worthless. Even a flat buckle collar can do serious damage to a dog's trachea, much more than a check chain or a half check ever could because of their position on the neck and because with these tools pressure is distributed more evenly around the dog's entire neck. Even halti and gentle leader head collars can damage dog's eyes, seriously injure necks and spines, and in one case I've personally heard of from someone who worked rescue, killed a dog when it lunged while having a head collar on. Every tool is capable of doing more harm than good and it's every dog owners personal responsibility to educate themselves on how to use them correctly and appropriately.
I couldn't agree more there - so many times I see dogs choking themselves on flat collars but because it's not a check chain then it's not harming the dog ph34r
My brother has always used check chains as collars on his working labs. I don't like it at all but in all the years he's had dogs, he has barely needed to 'check' them (and uses flat collars when pups) ..and Labs imho are a different kettle of fish to train than cockers :lol2:
I walked his lab while I was home and the check was loose the entire time, even when other dogs were approaching and she saw her nemesis, a cat :lol2: I'd like to have comparison x-rays of her neck and the neck of a dog that pulls like a train ph34r
I guess he uses this tool, no matter how abhorrent to some, in the correct manner. He doesn't use them on pups btw, it's more in his eyes like a slip lead (which is a tool that can be misused too).
If bred true to type, GSDs and Malinois are hard dogs and Cocker Spaniels are soft dogs. What may be required to correct a hard dog would make a soft dog exhibit avoidance behavior and completely shut down. Normally a firm word from me is a good enough correction for my spaniel.
too true - Jarv is a softy and on the very very odd occasions I've had to REALLY yell at him (ie when he was an adolescent and was running towards a railway line) he acts as if he's been beaten. A firm word and lots of encouragement is enough for him, he's a sensitive soul.
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Regarding my comment on correction levels, I wrote that in response to you saying that you didn't like most of the methods used to train police dogs and would never use them with your own dogs. I use the same training method as a gentleman I know who trains personal protection dogs - teach with positive reinforcement, proof behaviors with corrections. We follow the same basic principle of balance and fairness, of being as gentle as possible, but as firm as necessary; but the firmness of the corrections he is sometimes required to give to his dogs would be outright cruelty if used on my own.
If bred true to type, GSDs and Malinois are hard dogs and Cocker Spaniels are soft dogs. What may be required to correct a hard dog would make a soft dog exhibit avoidance behavior and completely shut down. Normally a firm word from me is a good enough correction for my spaniel. A firm word would not work on a working type GSD that is operating in fight drive mode (fight drive meaning the dog knows it can take down a grown man and it wants to do so/he loves the fight and knows that he can win it), firmly latched onto a bite work helper, and won't out when told by his handler. When you have a high drive hard dog, higher levels of compulsion are sometimes required to correct and control a dog.
My personal experience (not just thoughts, vague opinions on the whole thing) with police methods and the reason for my comment about not using police methods on my dogs, is based on a number of techniques that were discussed with me to resolve issues with my rescue Weimaraner - not my cocker.
She's not a GSD of course, but Weimaraners are a dog that have been trialed (unsuccessfully) as an alternative to GSD police dogs in this country (I don't know about the states) because of some similar attributes they have. She is a big strong 32 Kilo dog with a very very strong prey drive which on the odd occasion early on was directed at people (strangers that made her uncomfortable) as well as other dogs - although she's never bitten and never been taught to bite obviously. As a Weimeraner from working stock, she also has a very strong hunt drive. Her natural state when out and about tends to be hyper alert and very pumped up, she also has had serious fear aggression issues too.
The methods discussed with me by the police trainer to work on her, involved an element of shouting and dominating her (which my dog will take, but it certainly doesn't get the best out of her) and addressing two of the main problems that I needed help with (prey lunging and fear aggression) with choke chain correction. As discussed earlier, she was in a half check when I rehomed her and this is when I was told about half checks and it was suggested she be put into a full check chain. With one technique discussed, the check chain was to be attached to a long line and when the dog reacted she would be checked and possibly bought down with it.... that was when I walked away. I agree very much that different dogs need to be handled in different ways, and when I really need my Weims attention if she's not on a lead, even now, I will shout and use an 'I mean business' voice - I have to, to snap her out of the very focused state she gets into at times (she will actively 'stalk' and lunge if not stopped).
I questioned what you'd said because partly, you were very vague in your post and also because I've resolved the issues with my dog (to the best they'll be given her start in life), without the 'hard' handling I was offered by the police dog trainer from the Met (Metropolitan Force - which is our London police force). Which surely for a family dog, is without doubt the best way, rather than the type of police handling/training I've been exposed to? I've managed her by instilling different behaviours and reactions to certain situations with distraction and reward based training - it is now an ingrained behaviour and one I'm very proud of achieving with her through a lot of hard work. From what I saw of her early on, some of the 'hard handling' and aversive techniques used by police trainers here did sometimes stop her in her tracks, but didn't work if you weren't attached to her at the time, it didn't change her behaviour for the better long term and only heightened her tendency to be pumped up and stressed. None of this would have given me the reliable dog I needed.
All this came up because of my comment on half check collars which was as I said, from this particular police dog trainer which you suggested probably wasn't from anyone that had any real experience of training police dogs... You've been talking about training in the states and generalising about my comments based on your experience and a police handling unit in a different country that appears to be very different to my experiences. So I stand by everything I've said - including the information I added to this post on half check collars as a training tool.
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Regarding my comment on correction levels, I wrote that in response to you saying that you didn't like most of the methods used to train police dogs and would never use them with your own dogs. I use the same training method as a gentleman I know who trains personal protection dogs - teach with positive reinforcement, proof behaviors with corrections. We follow the same basic principle of balance and fairness, of being as gentle as possible, but as firm as necessary; but the firmness of the corrections he is sometimes required to give to his dogs would be outright cruelty if used on my own.
If bred true to type, GSDs and Malinois are hard dogs and Cocker Spaniels are soft dogs. What may be required to correct a hard dog would make a soft dog exhibit avoidance behavior and completely shut down. Normally a firm word from me is a good enough correction for my spaniel. A firm word would not work on a working type GSD that is operating in fight drive mode (fight drive meaning the dog knows it can take down a grown man and it wants to do so/he loves the fight and knows that he can win it), firmly latched onto a bite work helper, and won't out when told by his handler. When you have a high drive hard dog, higher levels of compulsion are sometimes required to correct and control a dog.
She's not a GSD of course, but Weimaraners are a dog that have been trialed (unsuccessfully) as an alternative to GSD police dogs in this country (I don't know about the states) because of some similar attributes they have. She is a big strong 32 Kilo dog with a very very strong prey drive which on the odd occasion early on was directed at people (strangers that made her uncomfortable) as well as other dogs - although she's never bitten and never been taught to bite obviously. As a Weimeraner from working stock, she also has a very strong hunt drive. Her natural state when out and about tends to be hyper alert and very pumped up, she also has had serious fear aggression issues too.
The methods discussed with me by the police trainer to work on her, involved an element of shouting and dominating her (which my dog will take, but it certainly doesn't get the best out of her) and addressing two of the main problems that I needed help with (prey lunging and fear aggression) with choke chain correction.
I questioned what you'd said because partly, you were very vague in your post and also because I've resolved the issues with my dog (to the best they'll be given her start in life), without the 'hard' handling I was offered by the police dog trainer from the Met (Metropolitan Force - which is our London police force). Which surely for a family dog, is without doubt the best way, rather than the type of police handling/training I've been exposed to? I've managed her by instilling different behaviours and reactions to certain situations with distraction and reward based training - it is now an ingrained behaviour and one I'm very proud of achieving with her through a lot of hard work. From what I saw of her early on, some of the 'hard handling' and aversive techniques used by police trainers here did sometimes stop her in her tracks, but didn't work if you weren't attached to her at the time, it didn't change her behaviour for the better long term and only heightened her tendency to be pumped up and stressed. None of this would have given me the reliable dog I needed.
Just based on what you wrote about what the police trainer suggested for your Weim, I stand by everything I said about my low regard for K9 police unit trainers both here and and now on the other side of the pond. Are our experiences so different if your MET police dog trainer obviously didn't know what he was doing when working with your dog? Why in the world would the man suggest such firm methods on such a soft breed of dog and on a dog that is fear aggressive? Of course, hardness in handling and levels of compulsion required is going to be different between a family dog (especially one with a faulty temperament) and a breed of dog that is selectively bred for protection work and what was suggested for your dog was unnecessary. Like I said before, any good trainer isn't going to give you a tool, like a half check, and training method, like compulsion based training, and say that it's the cure all for all dogs and all situations.
Your MET dog trainer obviously isn't someone I'd consider a good trainer. Perhaps a good enough trainer for dogs who have been selectively bred for the temperament and drives that would require firmer handling for control, but not a good enough trainer to understand that all dogs have different levels of drives and different temperaments that would necessitate a more in-depth evaluation of one's approach to training.
The personal protection dog breeder and trainer I know uses firm methods with his dogs, but I would trust him with my own dogs in a heartbeat, because I know that he's smart enough to know the difference between handling the breed of dog he normally works with and softer breeds. He uses reward based training for ALL his dogs - those kenneled and trained for protection work and his personal dogs, an APBT and a Labrador Retriever - and he corrects ALL dogs for inappropriate behavior, but the difference in levels of corrections is determined by the temperament of the dog, meaning a zap of the shock collar for the working GSD or the removal of a prized object (negative punishment) from the Lab. The training method is the same for all dogs, but the correction level differs depending on the individual dog.
I think it would be pretty obvious that the Weimaraner would make a lousy police dog. The temperament of a correct Weimaraner should have no social aggression, which is essential for real protection work. Being big and having lots of prey drive is only a part of what makes a good protection dog. Engaging a suspect (his prey) and biting out of satisfaction of prey drive is only good enough if it's all just a game (something like Schutzhund), but completely unreliable in the real world, which is scary and where prey fights back.
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Sounds like you agree with me then. For the record, this wasn't 'my' trainer, it was a man who was suggested to me by an APDT trainer, who I don't think realised the level of some of his methods. I met him and discussed how he'd approach our problems. I tried a number of different APDT trainers but none of them felt they where happy working with my dog in situ which was only where her problems manifest, so I needed to try and find someone that might. As it happens I couldn't so had to use theory and try different advice offered until we found a way forward that worked and I was prepared to do with her. Weim's aren't really 'soft' dogs.. they are reasonably sensitive and very intelligent but certainly not Spaniel level of 'soft' - the hunting jobs they were bred for and are capable of, are very different to Spaniels. We're going around in circles on this now for really for no real reason. This thread was more about the appropriateness of half check collars in a puppy training classes today..
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We're going around in circles on this now for really for no real reason. This thread was more about the appropriateness of half check collars in a puppy training classes today..
I agree Hannah so will close this now.