CockersOnline Forum
Cocker Activities => Showing => Topic started by: *Jes* on July 10, 2012, 09:01:33 PM
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I recently attended an Open Show and wondered afterwards about judging regulations and how judges were expected to conduct themselves during their judging appointment.
Before the judging commenced it became evident that the judge knew some of the exhibitors (of which I know is natural as most judges are after all exhibitors themselves) as the judge started asking people if certain others had turned up :shades:
In one class there was only two exhibits and numerous absentees. The judge spoke to the first exhibitor on first name terms, on entering the ring and on numerous occasions during the judging process. As the exhibitors dog was "playing up" i.e. not standing still or moving on four legs, the judge proceeded to suggest other ways of standing and moving the dog and the class seemed to turn more into private ringcraft tuition for this particular exhibitor :-\
I wondered if this was common amongst judges and if they should be allowed to do this? I think it would certainly put new exhibitors off and did not look professional at all.
Incase you were wondering "yes" this particular dog did win the class although how the judge managed to assess the dog is anyone's guess and people did raise the question around the ringside.
Any similar experiences?
Please note the judge being discussed here was not judging Cockers
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No experience - sorry
But from what you have described it does sound a bit off
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Judges shouldn't engage in conversation with exhibitors & it does look very bad if they refer to people entered under them by name ph34r This is from the KC's Code of Best Practice for Judges:
1.15 (Judges should) Conduct themselves in a courteous manner to all and concentrate fully on the dogs. It is inadvisable for judges to call any exhibitor/competitor by their name, initiate or engage in a conversation initiated by an exhibitor/competitor whilst judging is in progress.
As far as giving a naughty puppy chances to get their act together, most judges would allow a bit of leeway and give a pup more than one chance to move but it shouldn't go any further than that really.
Sounds like this judge is one to put in your little black book of judges to avoid in future ;)
PS If anyone wants to read the full KC Guide for Judges, it's here: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/488/guidejudges.pdf
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If the exhibitors who were commenting from the ringside were so upset they could always take the issue up with the kennel club. :shades:
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If the exhibitors who were commenting from the ringside were so upset they could always take the issue up with the kennel club. :shades:
I think they'd have to put their money down and lay a complaint at the time with the Secretary - not many will do that as I think it costs £35 or something like that to lodge a complaint?
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I thought it was more than that jane! I think that we have all had days where we feel hard done by but you just have to move on to the next one :D
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I thought it was more than that jane! I think that we have all had days where we feel hard done by but you just have to move on to the next one :D
Exactly and vote with your feet by avoiding this unprofessional judge the next time ;)
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Exactly. Even though i passed my breed specifics exam the other week i'm glad i'm not ready to start judging yet! ph34r
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I saw a similar thing at an open show recently too; the judge kept talking to one woman and shock horror she won...
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I saw a similar thing at an open show recently too; the judge kept talking to one woman and shock horror she won...
Yes i have too :shades: i'm sad to say more than once :shades: >:(
I think its best i don't say anymore ph34r :005:
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Thanks all for your comments and I 'm glad I'm not the only one, we just couldn't believe it! :-\
We filmed it with the camcorder and it is even more evident when we watched it back!!!
Thanks for the information too Jane, looked for the guidelines for judging on the Kennel Club website but couldn't' quite see it ph34r Will certainly take a look.
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TBH, when I bought Jinley, I had visions of taking her around shows and winning a few rosettes, but having spoken to a number of people (not just Cocker owners) I was put off having being told shows can be incestuous and your success is very much based on "who you know or who you are".
As I know "nobody" I never tried it. Would love to go to a couple of shows to see how its done though - can you take dogs with you or are they not allowed?
Pat
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TBH, when I bought Jinley, I had visions of taking her around shows and winning a few rosettes, but having spoken to a number of people (not just Cocker owners) I was put off having being told shows can be incestuous and your success is very much based on "who you know or who you are".
Not true - of course human nature being human nature, there are indeed judges who only place their friends or don't have the confidence to place people they don't recognise, but there are lots of judges who do have integrity and try their best to do a good job (and it's not easy despite what people might think :D) Even when a judge is honest and judged the dogs fairly, some exhibitors will complain if they haven't done well (human nature again :005:)
You'd be v welcome to go along to a show just to watch - if you wanted to take your dog, you'd need to either enter a class at the show or enter her "not for competition" beforehand (usually only costs a few pounds).
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I've been going to ringcraft lessons Pat and whilst I'll never show Charlie in a cc show, I will enter him in a local show and I'd nothing else we have fun at class abd I at least get to show Charlie off to the others at class :)
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Just to diverse slightly away from judging etiquette, twenty odd years ago, I showed a young English Setter. His second show was a Gundog open and he won his Novice class. Cups/trophies were on offer to the winners of each class. Just before we left, I went to collect his cup, only to be told it was broken. I questioned that it looked OK to me but the lady was insistent she couldn't let it go. I was so disappointed and upset and to this day, I honestly believe that because me and my dog were new to showing, they didn't want me to have his prize.
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At the show before last, Pheobe won her class, but at the last show, the judge did not ask her age and did not even look at her in the final line up. Needless to say she was not even shortlisted. I do expect the same chance as everyone else. >:D
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At the show before last, Pheobe won her class, but at the last show, the judge did not ask her age and did not even look at her in the final line up. Needless to say she was not even shortlisted. I do expect the same chance as everyone else. >:D
That's showing for you, lots of ups and downs, you can win one week and be unplaced the next, it happens to everyone. Not every judge asks the age (most do, if only to break the ice but it's not a requirement) and not all judges are polite - you learn to avoid the ones that aren't.
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We've only shown a few years but have kept a note of our judges from the start along with how many were in the class, how we were placed. Then a few have comments from "never show under again" to those with gold stars. Not all relate to how we were placed, some are just down to being given a fair chance.
If it's any consolation the same applies across many (if not all) breeds! Good Luck and hope to see you at a show soon.
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At the show before last, Pheobe won her class, but at the last show, the judge did not ask her age and did not even look at her in the final line up. Needless to say she was not even shortlisted. I do expect the same chance as everyone else. >:D
That's showing for you, lots of ups and downs, you can win one week and be unplaced the next, it happens to everyone. Not every judge asks the age (most do, if only to break the ice but it's not a requirement) and not all judges are polite - you learn to avoid the ones that aren't.
I would have thought that the first thing they ask is age, it helps them to judge fairly bearing in mind the age of the dog. But maybe that's just me (as a trainee judge)
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Well I'm a nobody, with a dog with a CC :luv: it can happen.
Some judges are fab, the others well don't go under them again!
Sounds like you came across a poor one and silly them for making it so obvious!
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Jane's comments are spot on. Judging is a privilege in my view.Every dog deserves equal treatment and evert exhibitor should be treated with equal courtesy. I recall many moons ago when I was stewarding our breed,the judge informed me he knew he had a top winner in the entry and suggested I might point it out as he mighnt recognise the dog. Needless to say my advice was that he needed to judge all the dogs according to the standard- there was no way I would point it out!! Has judging moved on? Well I guess it's like everything that involves people- some good and some best committed to the little blabk book of "never again"
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I would have thought that the first thing they ask is age, it helps them to judge fairly bearing in mind the age of the dog. But maybe that's just me (as a trainee judge)
How does it help you to judge fairly, just curious? I do usually ask the age but not necessarily in every class (it's obviously more relevant in puppy classes than the higher classes)
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Has judging moved on? Well I guess it's like everything that involves people- some good and some best committed to the little blabk book of "never again"
Aint that the truth :D
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This reminds me, one of the men at our ringcraft class had said that his saluki only ever gets beaten by one dog...the crufts winner...
He was saying the crufts saluki never did very well until the owner asked a young lad of 12 to show him and now voila he won crufts and everything else....
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If it's any consolation (probably not much :005:) field trials are pretty similar. Simon (Caoimhe's trainer) is one of the 'big names' in trialling and there are judges that it's just not worth expecting anything under. There's always going to be an element of 'who you know' in any judging sport, I think that's just life and human nature and you have to roll with the punches. Caoimhe ran in another trial 2 or 3 days after she had her first Open win, according to Simon she ran even better in the 2nd trial than in the one she won and made the best retrieve of the day (and if he says that then it's true, he's by far the harshest critic of his dogs and will tell me if she doesn't perform at her best) but what did she get? A ticket (certificate of merit) - if she'd won she would have become a FTCh that day - but that's trialling for you, highs and lows! If nothing else it's taught me to be very pragmatic :lol2:
Trialling also has the added frustrations of only having a relatively very short season in which it takes place, and you have to go into a draw for pretty much every competition you enter as obviously there's only a limited number of places (maximum of 18 in a Cocker trial) and they're always oversubscribed so even getting a run is difficult enough let alone winning - all part of the fun though ph34r :005:
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This reminds me, one of the men at our ringcraft class had said that his saluki only ever gets beaten by one dog...the crufts winner...
He was saying the crufts saluki never did very well until the owner asked a young lad of 12 to show him and now voila he won crufts and everything else....
Like everything else, that works both ways as often DD Meg as a Junior handler has been overlooked as a junior as have many of her friends. This year has seen a real turn round with Juniors in the Groups at some of the biggest championships but that in part is a drive by the Kennel club to promote junior handlers as up and coming judges. We struggled to even find breeders willing to sell us a pup as Meg was a Junior handler.
Luke has been extremely lucky to have the success with the Saluki but I wouldn't necessarily put it down to giving a cute kid with dog :dunno:
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There's always going to be an element of 'who you know' in any judging sport, I think that's just life and human nature and you have to roll with the punches.
Absolutely - I actually think it's the same in any competitive activity where there's any kind of subjective evaluation, from ballroom dancing to flower arranging :D It's comforting to hear it's the same in field trials though - and yes you just have to accept that sometimes (not all the time) things will happen which aren't fair so you just have a quick moan and then forget about it and look forward to the next time. People who show dogs and are endlessly negative and bitter about how "crooked" and "facey" it all is would probably find a non-competitive hobby a lot more relaxing as they surely can't be enjoying themselves showing their dogs ph34r
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I'm new to showing - took the hobby up 2 1/2 years ago. There's no doubt I've had mixed experiences and on a few occassions have felt overlooked but I've also had some lovely experiences too.
I'm more confident in the ring now and feel I handle my dog to better advantage than I used to. As a result I have started to be placed on occassion.
If we have a disappointing day, when the judge shows no interest, I put it down as experience and try to enjoy the day out regardless. For me it's a hobby but I recognise that for others it's more important than that and maybe that can cloud their judgement ocassionally - like others have said human nature ;)
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In agility the fastest dog that's clear wins and you wouldn't think it would be based on opinions at all, turns out you can say if my dog had gone clear he would have won. People talk about how a dog who consistantly gets faults but fast times is better than a consistent dog that is clear most of the time ph34r.
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I enjoy showing because, irrelevant as to where (or if) I am placed I get to spend time with my dogs. Really looking forward to Sunday because of that...it just a shame the OH has to come too...will have to keep him on a short lead! :005:
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I'm new to showing - took the hobby up 2 1/2 years ago. There's no doubt I've had mixed experiences and on a few occassions have felt overlooked but I've also had some lovely experiences too.
I'm more confident in the ring now and feel I handle my dog to better advantage than I used to. As a result I have started to be placed on occassion.
If we have a disappointing day, when the judge shows no interest, I put it down as experience and try to enjoy the day out regardless. For me it's a hobby but I recognise that for others it's more important than that and maybe that can cloud their judgement ocassionally - like others have said human nature ;)
I like this! :) I've only been showing Toby a matter of months, just open shows and this is my point of view about it too. We've managed to be placed a few times & I'm over the moon when that happens but if we don't it's just a good experience and more lessons learnt for both me and Toby, plus I love going to shows just to meet others with the same interest and meet some pretty lovely dogs too! :D