barf debate

[Penel]

Well I can tell you from experience (not reading from a book or the internet) that when my dogs eat whole fresh rabbits, their poo does not contain fur the next day....

[Cob-Web]

You can argue all youlike but research does show that feeding raw meat increases the risk of nasty bugs to and the transmission of those to humans. This is not opinion it is fact. Increased exposure to pathogens by its very nature increases the risk of infection. I f you could microscopically examine how far your dog can spread these live pathogens from its mouth, its fur, its pooh you would probably be surprised. Why take any precautions with raw meat at all if there is no risk.

There are lots of other risks in the world though - I don't think anyone is saying that raw meat never carries germs - just that the risk is lower than many other risks we take every day.......

Since starting to feed Molo raw, I have been amazed at the number of people I meet who do feed their dogs partially, or fully raw diets. This may be because I live in a rural area with lots of working dogs, (and millions of rabbits) - but it does mean that no matter what I feed Molo at home, me and my family will always be exposed to some level of risk from other dogs/foxes/badgers who have walked or soiled an area of ground that we sit or stand on 

To me, the risk of infection is low enough for me to decide that raw food is something that I do want to feed Molo.
I respect that others don't want to take that level of risk - and understand that my judgement in relation to the care of my daughter may be questioned as a result 

[clairep4]

You can argue all youlike but research does show that feeding raw meat increases the risk of nasty bugs to and the transmission of those to humans. This is not opinion it is fact. Increased exposure to pathogens by its very nature increases the risk of infection. I f you could microscopically examine how far your dog can spread these live pathogens from its mouth, its fur, its pooh you would probably be surprised. Why take any precautions with raw meat at all if there is no risk.

But if those of us who are feeding raw take the same precautions we do from preparing raw food for ourselves, and clear up poop quickly, I can't see there is a vastly increased risk myself. My dog eats all kinds of rubbish out on her walks, if she came upon a half rotten sheep she would probably eat it (my mum's border collie up in cumbria does this regularly, also dead salmon washed up by the river, leftovers of rabbits killed by the local cat, you name it!), she eats the faeces of other animals at times, she eats leftover KFC meals that have been in a bin for a weekend and dragged around by foxes - I just think if you go down the route of what bugs dogs are likely to pass on, there must be a myriad of them regardless of what you feed them.

Out of interest have any raw feeders on here picked up nasty bugs from their dogs? I know I certainly haven't. 

[clairep4]

Yes they sre carnivores but not true carnivores like the cat. Thier digestive system shows this - their teeth are different also than dogs. Dogs digestive systems contain complex processes for breaking down carbohydrate as well as meat. They are born not to eat meat alone. In the wild wolves are not eating prime cuts of cattle, lamb, chicken and so on. They are more likely to eat rats, rabbits and so on, which porvides only a small amount of raw meat, as well as fur etc.

How far do a wolve's teeth differ from a domestic dog's? Domestic dogs still have the teeth or a carnivore.

Re. wild wolves not eating prime cuts of cattle etc and only eating a small amount of raw meat, how much meat do you think we are feeding?

Bella gets around 180g of food a day (twice what she would have if she were on kibble, the extra weight coming from the water in the meat). This 180g contains probably around 90-100g of pure meat, the rest is bone, pulped veg, offal and a bit of bran for roughage, so it's not like she's being presented with a prime steak for breakfast. 

[kb]

That is fine - each to their own. I just don't think the risk is confined to the meat and the dog faeces. Dogs do not know what precautions to take - do you disinfect their mouths, their ears, their paws, their bowls, the floor that they came in and sat on after they did a pooh and didn't clean their bums?  Oh look I am not going to go on about this - the department of health is always running campaigns because people don't fully asppreciate the risk of bugs which cause food poisoning. With dogs and chidren (the cause of my concern, hygiene will never be that good - you may feed barf for life and never have a problem - you may feed it once and the dog or child or elderly person could get salmonella and die. Any risk of these potentially life threatening bugs is too great. When I handle raw meat I take all the precautions i reasonably can to eliminate the risk - dogs and children cannot!

Edited to add:

I have not examined the pooh of many wolves but have read about those who do research with wild wolves who describe this - I will try to find the link! Are you debating this Penel - are even the experts wrong?

I think a wolf's mouth is different from that of the domestic dog. I will try and find the link.

[clairep4]

That is fine - each to their own. I just don't think the risk is confined to the meat and the dog faeces. Dogs do not know what precautions to take - do you disinfect their mouths, their ears, their paws, their bowls, the floor that they came in and sat on after they did a pooh and didn't clean their bums?  Oh look I am not going to go on about this - the department of health is always running campaigns because people don't fully asppreciate the risk of bugs which cause food poisoning. With dogs and chidren (the cause of my concern, hygiene will never be that good - you may feed barf for life and never have a problem - you may feed it once and the dog or child or elderly person could get salmonella and die. Any risk of these potentially life threatening bugs is too great. When I handle raw meat I take all the precautions i reasonably can to eliminate the risk - dogs and children cannot!

Sure - but you can just as easily get salmonella from eating a dodgy egg sandwich in a cafe (as I once did!) - that wouldn't make me never ever eat another sandwich in a cafe again though. I just think those of us who do feed raw will have put alot of thought into the potential risks and are prepared to live with that and gain the benefits of a dog which is much healthier (certainly in my case, anyway). I think we're getting too focussed on the fact that potentially someone could pick up a bug from the raw meat their dog is eating. If we want to talk about bug-ridden animals' mouths, should we start disinfecting our cats' mouths as well (incidentally mine are fed on kibble) which are notoriously full of nasties (hence the fact that when my cat got bitten by another cat last week it took only 3 hours for a huge cyst to develop). Going off topic I know but just to illustrate the point, you could worry forever about potentially picking up a bug from somewhere, there are risks all around us!

[bluegirl]

Kb, after this debate I'm struggling to understand why you even have a dog!

[kb]

Bluegirl - now you are being unreasonable again!

I have a dog because I love animals - presumably like you. I also have a cat. I am concerned like you are that in owning a dog I do my best for it. I wonder if you are suggesting that everyone who disagrees with feeding raw should be excluded from owning a dog. I happen to think that there are aspects of the barf diet which give rise to concern. There also aspects of the commercial food diet which give rise to concern,. I am tempted to home cook but I also have concerns about feeding a diet too rich in human food to dogs, because of the varying types of carbohydrate, salt content and so on. I want to do what is right by my dog, but in doing so I want to keep her safe. I don't have enough evidence to prove that barf is safe. That does not mean I should notown a dog. I am being sensible in weighing up the argument as I am sure you did - but we have reached different conclusions.

Do not however question my ability to own a dog - that is very unfair. DRiving a car has risks we all knwo that when we drive one. We drive cautiously and don't add additional risks to the process. That does not mean we should not own a car. Those who drive in a way which does pose risk may say we should not.

[kb]

Claire - as for the cats I presume when you got your cat you knew that abscesses often develop with cat bites. I have been bitten by a cat andhad this experience personally. It does not stop me from owning a cat - but I eliminate the risk of her biting me or my children ,by not handplaying with her anymore - a reasonable and sensible precaution.

What i would really like is someone to tell me how I can develop a diet which is good for my dog while accepting that I don't feed raw. I don't want to feed pasta or rice or any unrefined carbohydrate. Can anyone help?

[sarahp]

Kb, after this debate I'm struggling to understand why you even have a dog!

D'ya know what Karen?  I was just thinking the very same thing myself 

KB - if you are that paranoid about germs and nasties - why have a dog??

[Cob-Web]

Any risk of these potentially life threatening bugs is too great.

Surely if we applied this theory to our whole lives - any risk is too great - then we'd all live in little plastic bubbles though 

I sat next to a child with chicken pox in the airport yesterday - I might get shingles, give it to my daughter and she might develop fatal complications..... 

My daughter and I might get hit by an irresponsible driver walking home from school......

Molo might get bitten by an out of control dog when we are out walking.......

Life is full of risk.......I wonder why this one creates more debate than greater risks -  from which people die every day 

I have searched the internet and been unable to find any cooked meat diets that exclude carbohydrate; either manufactured or home-made recipes - this suggests to me that the carbohydrate forms an essential part of the diet; unless all the pet food manufacturers have got it wrong 

[sarahp]

I wonder if you are suggesting that everyone who disagrees with feeding raw should be excluded from owning a dog.

Now you are being a little irrational and even more obtuse!  That is not what Karen is suggesting at all as well you know!  She is simply wondering - like quite a few of us - how someone so hung up on germs, parasites and nasties would allow a dog into contact with them!  Regardless of what you feed there is a risk of infection - its a choice we all make!!!

[kb]

You see you just don't get it - I am not paranoid. It is a reasonable and very sensible argument. The fact that no one else wants to take it seriously is th eproblem. You see why can anybody understand that feeding raw meat increases the risk - end of story. Yes the risks are there in every day life and we are equipped to deal with that - dogs and small children are not. When my dog eats and empties her dish my child could easily go over and handle taht dish, leading to contamination from raw meat - if the meat is cooked - no risk. Most of the pathogens that ordinarily live in my dog will not cause my children harm - but those which cause food poisoning in humans - which you get from raw meat, raw eggs, unpasteurised goats milk and so on, are extremely harmful. They are excreted live in dog faeces - they once again do not pose a risk to most healthy adults but they do to children and thise who are immunosuppressed and the elderly!

 Why is this so hard to understand? Would you let your children handle raw meat? Would you let them eat raw meat? Why not? Could this be the risk of food poisoning? Can you be sure that you have removed 100% of pooh from the garden, are you sure your dogs ears have not been in the meat etc, etc. It is not the dog that is the issue - it is the raw meat. Please do not question my ownership of dogs - I feel feeding a dog a raw diet is irresponsible but I am not being rude and questioning your ability or suitability to own a dog.

[clairep4]

Claire - as for the cats I presume when you got your cat you knew that abscesses often develop with cat bites. I have been bitten by a cat andhad this experience personally. It does not stop me from owning a cat - but I eliminate the risk of her biting me or my children ,by not handplaying with her anymore - a reasonable and sensible precaution.

My point was that there are risks in just about everything in life, it's just how life is. My OH got bitten by a staffie the other week when out walking our dog - doesn't mean we'll never ever take her out for a walk in case one of us gets bitten by another dog.

I don't think anyone's questioning your ability to look after a dog, just your attitude that there is danger in absolutely everything - you take risks in just about everything you do, I could get RSI from typing this and dodgy eyes from looking at the screen but I'm still going to do it!  

[clairep4]

are you sure your dogs ears have not been in the meat

Yes cos she eats out of one of my home-made spaniel bowls 

(and if she has a bone her ears are tied back  )