Grumpy Boys

[Shirley]

Hi Everyone

Had an awful day and hope to get a little advice please.  As some of you know, we've had a few problems with Cooper in the past - he's always been a nervy dog and as a pup would squeal and run from other dogs, but learned at some point (when and how, I can't really pinpoint) that when it comes to other dogs, attack is the best form of defence.  He really goes for it if a dog invades his space - as long as he has an open area he will just give them a wide berth.  He and Morgan have always got on absolutely brilliantly with no squabbles whatsoever.  Even though he's wary of new people he has never been aggressive to anyone - just barks and hides when they come in, until they gain his trust.  He has been so much better with people recently - we've got a note by the door asking visitors to pick up a treat on the way in and this has helped a lot.

Eric has been doing most of the walking for the past few weeks - it's harder for me to keep up at the moment  .  He took them to the beach this afternoon and when he got back he was mad - Morgan had gone to play with another dog (as he does) and rather than avoid the other dog Cooper had gone and attacked it  .  Eric was mortified and, after apologising profusely to the owner, came straight back home.

I bathed them both when he got home.  They do usually go a bit mad after a bath, play fighting, which I usually enjoy watching as it happens so rarely since they were puppies.  Today was different though - Cooper really went for Morgan in a big way.  I was shocked, as they have never so much a grumbled with eachother, not even over food or toys.  I managed to get them in separate rooms (almost getting a snap from Morgan, who was obviously confused) but knew I couldn't leave it like that so let Morgan out to the garden and then let Cooper out.  They were fine then, back to normal, playing together and sniffing eachother  .  I just don't unserstand what's happening.

Sorry this is turning out a lot longer than I meant but there's not much more, honest   . 

Cooper is due to have an undescended testicle removed but the vet has a two month waiting list and I don't really know when to book it for.  Baby is due in 5 weeks and obviously I don't want to give him too many shocks in a small space of time - he will need some time to adjust to the new addition before having an upset like an op.  I know some people say that neutering has an affect on a dog nature and although I'd never subscribed to this school of thought, I've found myself secretly hoping that it will help Cooper's problems.  I just don't know what to do for the best, don't want to n=make his problems worse.

I hope someone will have some advice - am refusing to tell anyone I know about this 'blip' as I don't want to hear their ridiculous suggestions about 'getting rid' of my dogs.  No matter what, my boys are going nowhere and I think I might just belt any 'well-meaning' friend or relative who suggests otherwise  .

Well done to anyone who reached this point, hope you don't feel like you've wasted 10 minute sof your life that you'll never get back 

Any advice grately appreciated, thanks

Shirley 

[scrappy]

Hi Shirley, 

Poor you!  Felt I had to post as I have had similar issues with my two boys Alfie and Sam in the past and have had great success using a combination of homeopathy/ Flower remedies and a bit of behavioural work.  The abbreviated story is that we have 2 sibling golden cockers and when they were a year old we got them neutered.  Sam had an undescended testicle and ended up needing a second, bigger op to have this removed.  So in the 2 months between his two ops essentially Alfie was neutered and Sam was entire - I don't know if it was all "hormonal" or if it was inevitably going to happen as the dogs matured but we went through a phase of fighting that was escalating into quite serious incidents - bleeding ears etc.  Alot of it seemed to occur around us and be involved with dominance/jealousy issues so we went back to basics - no up on couches, no treats around each other etc.  A behaviourist friend of mine recommended Holly (for jealousy) and Impatiens (for irritability) in their water bowls along with Valerian straight into their mouths if they were getting growly with each other.  Within a few days of all this thinds settled.  Now if we notice them beginning to get tetchy with each other we use these remedies.  They seem to go through a phase for a few days every 6 mths or so but now we know how to resolve it.
I also had all the helpful comments re. rehoming and "you can never keep sibling dogs - they'll kill each other".  Not helpful in the slightest when you're in the situation.  I remember a particularly tearful night saying I'd divide my home down the middle but I'd be keeping both dogs!  We also made the mistake of having ours neutered at the same time as moving house - silly idea in retrospect as far too much change in a short space of time. I would space out the op and baby's arrival a bit if you can.  Sorry for such a long post - but don't worry you CAN sort this!

[Magic Star]

Shirley, sweetheart, what a nightmare day for you! 

I really don't know much about neaturing and behaviour, only what I have read on here and there seems to be mixed opinions about it.  You have probably done this already, but just make sure theres nothing physically bothering Cooper, that could account for his behaviour.  Then maybe make sure Morgans glands don't need doing as I have heard this can send out an aggresive scent to other males   I am probably repeating stuff you have already done, but I suppose its process of elimination into finding out the root cause of Coopers outbursts today

Other than that, I can't really help or advise, except to say I hope it was a one off blip and that tomorrow is a better day for him (and you)  I know its hard, but try not to worry or stress yourself out over it.

Hugs to you all (think you need them today) 

Emma xxx

[Shirley]

Thanks for the reply    Glad you've succeeded in solving the problem with your boys    Will do a bit of research on the remedies you've suggested - even if I don't get the right one to suit straight away, they can't do any harm    My boys aren't littemates, Morgan is 4 and Cooper is 2 1/2, both from different breeders, but just shows you can encounter problems even when you do follow the golden rules    I'm really hoping this is a one off, but wasn't willing to wait until things got out of control before asking for advice - because of location, it's not easy to get help from a behaviourist so COL is great for asking for help when you need it  

Thanks again.

[Shirley]

Thanks Emma,

Actually you've just reminded me of something I'd forgotten about (in my panic). 

The reason they were getting a proper bath (shampoo/conditioner, the works) was because Cooper was stinking.  Eric was out last Saturday night and brought some friends home at the end of the evening.  I was in bed and in his 'non-to-sober' state, Eric didn't realise that a couple of his 'guests' were trying to make friends with Cooper  (effectively cornering him) until it was too late.  I'm not sure if it's the anal glands or not (there was no gunk on him) but you know when a dog gets a real fright and releases a really strong smell from their rear, well Cooper stank of this all week - it's only happened to him once before, when he knocked into a broom handle and it fell on him.  I was really angry last Sunday when he told me about the incident and made it perfectly clear this week that only people Cooper knows well were welcome unless they were sober.  I'm now wondering if that might have something to do with it - it's amazing how your mind goes blank when you panic..... or maybe it's just the pregnancy brain!!! 

[Pammy]

Shirley - doesn't sound like fun does it? Can't really add anything other than have a chat to the vet and see if they could fit Cooper in for his castration sooner rather than later. If you explain the position so that it's more than an elective procedure they might be willing to bend

[*Jay*]

Sorry to hear you are having problems - Vegas is waiting for an appointment to see a behaviourist due to his fear aggression (or at least what started as fear aggression) to other dogs. I'll be sure to pass on any tips to you

Re the neutering - if its fear aggression that Cooper has then neutering could very well make it worse. Is he going in for the full op or just getting the undescended one taken out?

[Rhona W]

Sorry I can't offer any help at all. But I did read a thread on here a couple of days ago from someone whose dogs had fought (or almost) after they had both had a bath. Something to do with their smells/scents having changed was the theory. Don't know if this would explain that part of events.   
Gill - any tips on fear aggression you can send my way too for Casper! 

[Shirley]

Thanks everyone

Pammy, I think if the vet will agree to do the op in the next couple of weeks I'll get in over with and he should have recovered enough by the time the baby arrives (fingers crossed) - it's just occurred to me that I don't know what the recovery time would be for this op - any ideas??

Gill, it's only the undescended one that's being removed.  The vet who owns the practice would only do a full castration so we left it for a while, but a new vet has joined and she has just recently agreed to do it - don't know if removing one will make any difference at all to his temperament but going to do it anyway just to avoid the other potential problems with leaving it where it is.  Will definitely be grateful if you could pass on any tips - from what you say about Vegas's problems starting out as fear aggression, it sounds like they are very similar    God, they do keep us on our toes, don't they?

Rhona,    that post was the first thing I thought of when it happened and if it hadn't been for the earlier incident I'd have been quicker to dismiss it.  I've just never seen them so much as grumble at one another.  Morgan is so docile - if Cooper wants a toy that he has, Morgan just gives it to him - there's never been a call for confrontation and there wasn't today, Cooper just attacked him for no reason 

Feeling better now that I have a few things to try, thanks girls!!     

[Penel]

Poor you sounds like a stressful weekend.  I've just had a friend on the phone - two of her dogs have just had a fight too...

Sorry I don't understand why you are only getting one testicle removed - to me that seems pointless - one will not make a difference to his behaviour at all.... two might... I would go for the full op, ASAP.
I have heard of two fights this weekend - I think the heat is not helping dogs temperaments...dogs would not be walking in this heat given the chance - on the beach, at the river - anywhere - they would be sleeping in the shade, and be left alone... walking them, bathing them - all stimulates them - and in this heat no wonder they've got peed off.
Try to keep them calm, cool, and just leave them alone in the heat if you can, and hopefully things will get back to normal - any guests that come round - make them leave the dogs alone...

[Shirley]

Hi Penelope

Heat....I wish!!    Last weekend we got a teensy little bit of sun - not as lucky as those further south.  I know not to take the boys to the beach when the weather is hot but up here in the 'wilderness' (Western Isles) it was far from hot today so I think I can rule that out as a reason for the aggression. 

I don't knowingly let guests harrass them , it was a 'one off' which was beyond my control and Eric's been left in no doubt that it was out of order (if you know what I mean   ) - but like I said, I don't want Cooper to continue being anti-social so I make a conscious effort to improve the problem.  Regular guests know to pick up a gravybone at the door on their way in, crouch down when they come into the kitchen and let Cooper come to them - this has been working out really well and I just hope that the one stupid incident hasn't set him back.

The plan was always just to remove the undescended testicle - nothing to do with temperament problems, as I understand it there is an increased chance of cancer developing (or less chance of it being detected in time to stop it spreading) in an undescended testicle, so not totally pointless.  Believe me, I've spent the last two years chewing this over (there are a few poor members here who know the mental torture I've put myself through in making the decision, as I've bent their ears along the way) and looking for research on the subject as I was totally confused as to what to do - I've contacted the RCVS to get their views on it and what put me off having the full op done on him was the fact that there is some evidence to suggest that not only are there no guarantees that it will solve his temperament problems but it may make his fear aggression worse.  The fact that there is the potential for the full op making him worse has put me off - you can take them out but you can't put them back again if you don't like the effect and that worries me    In addition to this (but not quite so important) - Cooper loves being groomed but if his coat changed so much after neutering that it required clippering this would be a major problem - he will not go anywhere near Eric when he's using the clippers on his own hair and I know I wouldn't have a hope of him letting me use them on him without a strong sedative 

I know that there are many differing views on the neutering thing but each individual can only go on the information they have and make their decision accordingly - my concern about the op was more to do with the timing, taking into consideration that Cooper is going to have a lot of other changes to deal with over the coming months.  Don't know if it even makes sense but it had popped into my head that maybe, just maybe, having the op done would mean half the hormones running through him (not even sure if that's how it works) and then I'd know what effect (if any) it was going to have on his temperament.  That's probably a totally ridiculous thought, but hey, if it is, I'll just blame it on the fact that in pregnancy a woman's brain shrinks........to the size of a man's!!!   

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Penelope - I do appreciate all the input I can get, sorry to warble on for so long    Seem to be making a habit of this today!! 

[Luvly]

 

[Penel]

A dog with fear aggression doesn't run up to another dog and attack it - which is what you have described.... yes perhaps he is fearful of people, but it doesn't sound like *fear* aggression with other dogs any more.... good luck with your decision - it's a tough one for sure.

[Top Barks]

Penel, surley a fear agressive dog will choose agression if it feels this is it's best form of defence?
Yes the dog is scared but sees agression as the best way to allieviate that fear.
Fight or flight, active or passive defence reflexes, dogs react differently to fearful situations.
Doug  will sometimes run away and sometimes he will charge at a dog  if he's uncomfortable, but which ever reaction he displays by looking at his body language and displacement behaviours I can tell that both are triggered by a fear.
Mark

[Penel]

But a fearful dog wouldn't run over to a dog and be aggressive would it - it has no reason to defend itself if the other dog isn't anywhere near it does it ?............ I guess none of us can tell without seeing the dog's behaviour eh...