ADVISE ON CHOOSING A PUP FOR SHOW

[spanielkiss]

Hi
I have finally chosen to fly to Sweden to buy my new pup.
I have contacted the breeders that seem appropriate as they show constantly and win a lot of BOS BOB CAC + CACIB .
I now have to pick between 3 kennels and 7 pups  .
I am here today to please  ask the show owners what I should ultimately look for and avoid .
The pups are all orange roan , male and female . I would take either sex ,just want to make the best choice .
Initially I have only  fotos , but will fly when the pups are 10 weeks old to collect just 1 .
Thanks to you all
Sally

[spanielkiss]

Forgot to mention , i live in Mallorca Spain .

[Jane S]

If you are buying a puppy at 10 weeks, you can only ever guess that he/she will be good enough to show as so many things can go wrong eg the bite could be incorrect when the adult teeth come through or the pup could grow too big or not big enough. Whichever puppy you choose, it will be a gamble! I don't see how you can choose a puppy just by looking at photos - you need to see puppies "in the flesh" so you can assess their temperament (vitally important!), see them move, feel how heavy their bone is and whether they have a good rib (you can't see these things in a photo). There is no way I would buy a puppy based on a photo unless it was from a breeder I knew well enough to trust their judgment. I'm not sure from your post whether you going to visit all 3 breeders before making your choice or are you going to choose from a photo and then collect that one?

[spanielkiss]

Hi Jane
The pups in question are mainlyl in a similar region of Sweden and I could visit nearly all of theml .
The photos help with a process of elimination. I have already refused one due to the fact that he is skinny and smaller than his litter mates alone .
I do not know the breeders personally but have spent hours looking at their results and their wordwide exports ,the only problem with 1 , Benchmark , is that they are in Finland, a further short flight away.
I think I have to trust their judgement also .
All of this is a difficult learning curve for me , quite honestly apart from the hours of studying comments on forums and sites like this one for help I am in the dark .
I have 4 cockers already 2 oldies ,1 monorchid  ,and a young bitch that has done ok as a pup but will probably not progress to a show adult .
This is my 1st serious show purchase. Any further tips or advise will be a help to me .
Thanks for the post Sally

[Jane S]

Sally, if you want to buy a show puppy with a reasonable guarantee he/she will be ok for showing, you really need to go for an older pup (one whose adult teeth are already through). If you can't do this, you really are taking a shot in the dark as you don't have the experience to pick a puppy and will therefore have to rely on the breeders you have chosen to guide you. Even then, breeders cannot tell you what the adult mouth will be like so you could go to all this expense and still have a puppy that you cannot show. I'm sorry if this sounds negative - just want you to be aware that no-one can go out and buy a guaranteed show puppy. You may be lucky but you may not be - something you need to be prepared for. Good luck anyway

[spanielkiss]

How old would you recomend ?

[Jane S]

By about 5 months, you will have a reasonable idea of what the adult teeth will be like (although some mouths do change after this time). I'm not trying to put you off by the way - just giving you an idea of what can happen. We have bought in several puppies over the years and one had a bad mouth when the teeth changed, one grew too big, one didn't grow enough and one became a Champion so we've experienced both sides of the coin

[Phaedra]

Sally, since I live in Sweden...do you mean that all these breeders will keep their puppies to the age of ten weeks when you come and make your pick?

Mabye these things happen, but it is very uncommon, unless you are cocker-world famous. I am surprised that you have managed to find seven orange puppies of potential show quality that are not spoken for. Sweden is a small country. Oranges are not that common and when really good oranges are born, they are often gone with the wind to other breeders/handlers. Especially the bitches.

If you want to by a Swedish pup, my advice is: fly here, visit the kennels, decide which one you prefer (type and temperament of dogs as well as personal contact with the owner). Check what combinations are coming up and put yourself on the list for those you are interested in. The wait until the breeder has a suitable puppy.

I am not trying to sound negative...but your description of the situation sound so very uncommon. Of course you can find puppies of potential show quality, but normally you can not travel from breeder to breeder and look at numbers of puppies.

Last year I lost my bitch and I bought two new ones. Since I know people I managed to find two bitches of potential show quality (nowadays, they are show quality) of types and lineage I like. But I would never have managed to do this unless I had shown my last bitch and learnt to know people. I am not 'good enough' myself to judge puppies, so I needed help and people whose judgement I trusted. Still, it is all a lottery.

My girls were purchased at 3 resp 4 months and they had both stayed in their kennels due tu various reasons. One was left-over from the breeder's pick of the litter. She had kept two bitches to choose between. The other one was her breeders pick, but her breeder decided that since she was short of time that autumn, she would sell the pup if someone suitable came along. We know each other, and I had always admired the dam of the bitch, so...Still the breeder  pointed out to me one million times;o) that even though she and a colleauge thought that this would be a dog of show quality, nothing was certain since she was only four months old. And her colleauge is a very experienced and reputable breeder.

Also remember that all puppies sold in Sweden are undocked. It is always easier to find a good quality male here. 

You can contact me if you want Sweden-info

Anneli



 

[Jane S]

Mabye these things happen, but it is very uncommon, unless you are cocker-world famous. I am surprised that you have managed to find seven orange puppies of potential show quality that are not spoken for. Sweden is a small country. Oranges are not that common and when really good oranges are born, they are often gone with the wind to other breeders/handlers. Especially the bitches.

I'm glad you have said this Anneli as I thought the same but was unsure whether the situation was different in Sweden - certainly in the UK, it would be unheard of for anyone to be offered so many pups with show potential (particularly not oranges!). From what you say, it is the same in Sweden

[spanielkiss]

Hi ,The situation was that I had to pick either by travelling before I collect on 11/8 or by photos and advise from the breeders .
I probably cannot mention the breeders but they were the best I could find with international recognition , one in  Finland also .
One was so helpfull she advised me that the puppies sired by her multi champion might turn out too big for Spain as he is a big cocker , therefore I concidered her comment  and cancelled my interest in the 2 dogs  ,
Another co/ownership kennel kept 3 for me but although she advised me that 1 of them was better for me than the others I decided against them as she needed a decision earlier than I could really give her one , confirming your comments about demand!.
I have found all of the people I have spoken to in Sweden really helpfull , I explained my bad experiences with the breeders I have used here to them ,and maybe that is why they have been attentative .
I have also  spoken  to different owners of cockers imported from sweden , who recomended the kennels to me and also commented on the size factor .Plus spent hours on Rasdata.nu checking on pedigrees , health checks ,statistics etc   ..
I promise ive done as much as i can !

Anyway I have selected a puppy now , under no pressure , and from orange roan bitch I have a  blue roan sable dog . I will look for an orange bitch again in a couple of years when I have more hands on knowledge .

I am soooo looking foreward to aug 11when I go to get him     , I recieve photos almost every other day of mum and pups and have been asked for his name so that
 he can get used to it .

He is so beautifull   

[Jane S]

Anyway I have selected a puppy now , under no pressure , and from orange roan bitch I have a  blue roan sable dog . I will look for an orange bitch again in a couple of years when I have more hands on knowledge .

You checked with other Spanish exhibitors that blue roan sable would be accepted at Spanish shows? I'm glad you've found your puppy and hope you have lots of fun with him but can't help but think that you are making things hard for yourself by choosing a colour which is not universally accepted and one where apparently there have been no CAC winners (even in Sweden). Best of luck anyway

[Phaedra]

Hi ,The situation was that I had to pick either by travelling before I collect on 11/8 or by photos and advise from the breeders .
I probably cannot mention the breeders but they were the best I could find with international recognition , one in  Finland also .
One was so helpfull she advised me that the puppies sired by her multi champion might turn out too big for Spain as he is a big cocker , therefore I concidered her comment  and cancelled my interest in the 2 dogs  ,
Another co/ownership kennel kept 3 for me but although she advised me that 1 of them was better for me than the others I decided against them as she needed a decision earlier than I could really give her one , confirming your comments about demand!.
I have found all of the people I have spoken to in Sweden really helpfull , I explained my bad experiences with the breeders I have used here to them ,and maybe that is why they have been attentative .
I have also  spoken  to different owners of cockers imported from sweden , who recomended the kennels to me and also commented on the size factor .Plus spent hours on Rasdata.nu checking on pedigrees , health checks ,statistics etc   ..
I promise ive done as much as i can !

Anyway I have selected a puppy now , under no pressure , and from orange roan bitch I have a  blue roan sable dog . I will look for an orange bitch again in a couple of years when I have more hands on knowledge .

I am soooo looking foreward to aug 11when I go to get him     , I recieve photos almost every other day of mum and pups and have been asked for his name so that
 he can get used to it .

He is so beautifull   

Sally, I am glad that you have found a puppy that you like.

BUT - I still think, if you really want a puppy with show potential - go to Sweden and look at dogs before you decide. Buying from photos is always difficult, and if you are not familiar with the lineage it is even harder. Considering the size factor, even though the parents of you pup may not be 'oversized' by non-Scandinavian means, I think it is valuable to study the their earlier offspring as well as parents  and relatives to get an idea of what is in the lines.

The breeder that told you about the size factor seem to know her lines and also the diffrence in prefrence considering type and details in different European countries. Why not visit her? She might have other stud dogs?

Whatever you decide, good luck!

Anneli 

[spanielkiss]

I have made my decision , the deposit is down , he is being called his new name , so for this year I am done .
I intend to spend the next year or two learning as much as possible regarding showing ,recognising good pups ,lines etc etc etc .
The fact that I have bought this particular puppy is of interest a breeder in Spain who has many great show dogs and I hope he will be a mentor to me  ,
but he doesnt know that yet   
Thanks to you all for your help , more photos to come , Sally