Dyllan and recall

[Cob-Web]

Mark and Mich - I don't get how that works!  You recall your dog and his reward for coming back is to be allowed to run off again. But he can stay free by not coming back.  So where is the incentive there? Because if he doesn't come back when you call, you can't put him back on the lead anyway. 
Sorry if it is me being dense there.  I'm not questioning that it works. Just wondering why/how. 

I must say when I do recall my dogs in the woods, they really aren't interested in any treats I have anyway. You practically have to force food upon them. 

My aim with Molo is to train an almost "involuntary recall" reaction......the best way to describe it is to compare it to some dogs reaction to a thrown ball. They instinctively chase the ball - no matter how tired they are or what else is on offer; it is just an automatic response.
Dogs can be taught to recall in the same way - they hear the whistle, or recall word - and there is an almost involuntary response to return  - I have a long way to go with Molo 

Once this level of recall is instilled then I imagine it is reinforced by allowing the dog to run off again when they are out running free.........?

[supaspaniel]

Mark and Mich - I don't get how that works!  You recall your dog and his reward for coming back is to be allowed to run off again. But he can stay free by not coming back.  So where is the incentive there? Because if he doesn't come back when you call, you can't put him back on the lead anyway. 
Sorry if it is me being dense there.  I'm not questioning that it works. Just wondering why/how. 

I must say when I do recall my dogs in the woods, they really aren't interested in any treats I have anyway. You practically have to force food upon them. 

The dogs reward was pleasing you by coming back. I think

[PennyB]

Mark and Mich - I don't get how that works!  You recall your dog and his reward for coming back is to be allowed to run off again. But he can stay free by not coming back.  So where is the incentive there? Because if he doesn't come back when you call, you can't put him back on the lead anyway. 
Sorry if it is me being dense there.  I'm not questioning that it works. Just wondering why/how. 

I must say when I do recall my dogs in the woods, they really aren't interested in any treats I have anyway. You practically have to force food upon them. 

The dogs reward was pleasing you by coming back. I think

Yes, my dogs are immediately rewarded by praise, or when they were training treats (as they were given the moment they sat at my feet), and I don't think mine see the released to go off again as part of this reward as they've already had the reward.

[Top Barks]

All dogs are different Penny and Bayley is the only one of my three like this.
However running free is what he wants so i control what he wants and he only gets it when i say.
Douglas loves his raggy or rabbit dummy and oliver likes to sniff pee.
I use the go sniff cue to reward Oli.
You just need to find whatever floats your dogs boat and use it to your advantage.
I am working with a beautiful Tri coloured boy at the moment and he will do anything for one of his owners old bra's. 

[LucyJ]

Bet you get some funny looks in the park with an old bra 

[Penel]

My aim with Molo is to train an almost "involuntary recall" reaction......the best way to describe it is to compare it to some dogs reaction to a thrown ball. They instinctively chase the ball - no matter how tired they are or what else is on offer; it is just an automatic response.
Dogs can be taught to recall in the same way - they hear the whistle, or recall word - and there is an almost involuntary response to return 

without sounding like I am showing off   , that is how Hattie's  (working cocker) recall is.  It's like she is on a piece of elastic - she can't not turn when I blow the whistle - same for Barley (lurcher) too, but he was already trained like that when I got him.  Tilly (show cocker) is about 98% like that, and Lola (english setter) about 95% - Gracie's is about 80% currently.... which frustrates me a lot, as I have a real "thing" about recall  
Anyway - I've read through the whole thread, and have a few comments....
my dogs are regularly handled using their scruffs - usually to gently guide them somewhere I want them to go - if they are not doing what I want them to do from just using my voice.  For example, if I want to hoover, and I want them all in another room - I say "out" - usually they all go, but if one doesn't then she /he will be guided by their scruff - mine dont wear collars in the house.  I actually prefer to use a scruff than drag by a collar which is what a lot of people would do.  For me, a scruff is like a built in collar    used correctly it's a fantastic aid, used wrongly, it can be painful - like most things.... I don't handle Gracie by her scruff as she barely has one - being a whippety type, she has no spare skin.  The gundogs and Barley don't even blink when I hold their scruffs.
I think a long line is a very useful aid - it means that the dog cannot fail to recall because you can reel it in..... s'no good saying don't let it fail - how can you stop a dog if it's running in the other direction - you can't, unless it's on a line.
I never let mine off the lead in a new place until I know where the roads are.  Barley and Hattie are incredibly reliable and I can pretty much let them off anywhere (and have done when they are working on location with me).  Gracie I don't let off anywhere new - the way I see it is this -better for her to have a safe walk on the lead or longline, than let her off for a run, and end up losing her.
(Steve Wanstall bred Hattie ....)
Positive reinforcement gets miles better results than negative training.
Anyone that thinks otherwise ought to try training a cat or a ferret    

[Mich]

I am working with a beautiful Tri coloured boy at the moment and he will do anything for one of his owners old bra's. 

  and I thought training Bails was bad!

[Brimbeck(Dyllan)]

Perhaps bras are the key to Dyllan 

Anyway he was very good today when I took him. 
I think we were lulled into a false sense of security as he had been so easy until this last week. I'm reading all the replies with interest and I'm grateful for your ideas.
Here is the fella in a butter wouldn't melt pose-

[PennyB]

All dogs are different Penny and Bayley is the only one of my three like this.

Couldn't agree more which is why I guess we all work out different strategies for different dogs (mine has been a learning curve based on stuff I've learnt from others, common sense and knowing my dogs)

[Nicola]

But when I take them to the woods, you can pretty much forget it for the first 15 minutes or so.  They are off chasing squirrels and flushing pheasants to their hearts' content.

Well they say not to recall the dog if you aren't 100% it will come back so I wouldn't for the first 15 mins.  Therefore your aren't rienforcing any them ignoring you.  I sure a friends paddocks on her farm for mochas free running, so lucky there.

This is a problem though when you are actually wanting to work the dog and is where I'm stuck on Alfie's 'working' training as he is similar
when he's in the woods or near heavy cover. Out in the open he's fine but as I've seen today when beating on a shoot you're very rarely out in the open and you can't just let the dog run without recall for 15 minutes because they will ruin the drive and quite rightly you'd probably be asked to leave.

Today, Tilly had to be 100% listening to me from the instant I let her off and she was, as was Dobbie with Freya and all the other beating dogs there but I know with Alfie he'd have hightailed it into the undergrowth and that would have been that. On an actual shoot you just don't have that 15 minutes to let them run about    and I don't think letting Alfie run around elsewhere beforehand would make much of a difference as he'd still be excited by the new terrain and new smells and obviously you can't let the dog run around on the beating area before you start as they will frighten all the birds away!

It's a tough one this 

[Top Barks]

Perhaps bras are the key to Dyllan 

Anyway he was very good today when I took him. 
I think we were lulled into a false sense of security as he had been so easy until this last week. I'm reading all the replies with interest and I'm grateful for your ideas.
Here is the fella in a butter wouldn't melt pose-

If you're really struggling I could take him off your hands

[Top Barks]

But when I take them to the woods, you can pretty much forget it for the first 15 minutes or so.  They are off chasing squirrels and flushing pheasants to their hearts' content.

Well they say not to recall the dog if you aren't 100% it will come back so I wouldn't for the first 15 mins.  Therefore your aren't rienforcing any them ignoring you.  I sure a friends paddocks on her farm for mochas free running, so lucky there.

This is a problem though when you are actually wanting to work the dog and is where I'm stuck on Alfie's 'working' training as he is similar
when he's in the woods or near heavy cover. Out in the open he's fine but as I've seen today when beating on a shoot you're very rarely out in the open and you can't just let the dog run without recall for 15 minutes because they will ruin the drive and quite rightly you'd probably be asked to leave.

Today, Tilly had to be 100% listening to me from the instant I let her off and she was, as was Dobbie with Freya and all the other beating dogs there but I know with Alfie he'd have hightailed it into the undergrowth and that would have been that. On an actual shoot you just don't have that 15 minutes to let them run about    and I don't think letting Alfie run around elsewhere beforehand would make much of a difference as he'd still be excited by the new terrain and new smells and obviously you can't let the dog run around on the beating area before you start as they will frighten all the birds away!

It's a tough one this 

There is no way a dog would have fifteen minutes time to do what the hell he wanted with me.
The idea is that I control the good stuff in my dogs life and their access to it.
I find myself using the premack principle of you do something for me and I'll do something for you.
Come when called and you get food or a toy and get to go play again the dog can't lose.
But it has to be on my terms. If the dog won't come back they are not ready to be off the lead in that situation.
working cockers are clever dogs and will try and work you to their advantage, Bayley is comical when trying to enguage me and encourage me to do what he wants.
I think cockers are not the easiest dogs to own and they need consistent and strong leadership from their humans.
In my experience give a cocker an inch and if you don't watch it they'll have their own personal dogs body to pamper and pander their every whim.
You wouldn't catch me doing that HONEST!

[Rhona W]

But when I take them to the woods, you can pretty much forget it for the first 15 minutes or so.  They are off chasing squirrels and flushing pheasants to their hearts' content.

There is no way a dog would have fifteen minutes time to do what the hell he wanted with me.

If the dog won't come back they are not ready to be off the lead in that situation.

So do I not take them to the woods then? 

[Cob-Web]

working cockers are clever dogs and will try and work you to their advantage, Bayley is comical when trying to enguage me and encourage me to do what he wants.
I think cockers are not the easiest dogs to own and they need consistent and strong leadership from their humans.

I have just found the website of Graigour Gundogs which includes a brilliant "training diary" of a working cocker called "Tessa the Toerag" - the diary describes his perception of the unique traits of cocker when compared to other gundogs (it is easier to get a yorkshireman to buy a round of drinks that a cocker to sit/stay  )

He also says that the basics of cocker training is to keep everything a game - and he describes only positive training methods in the spaniel diary 

[supaspaniel]

Perhaps bras are the key to Dyllan 

Anyway he was very good today when I took him. 
I think we were lulled into a false sense of security as he had been so easy until this last week. I'm reading all the replies with interest and I'm grateful for your ideas.
Here is the fella in a butter wouldn't melt pose-

If you're really struggling I could take him off your hands

just what I was thinking