Any thoughts?

[sarah phillips]

Lately Pebble and I have taken a break from Open shows so I could work on my handling. He has always been a little too excitable in the ring and not at all focused on the job in hand! I felt this was down to my inexperience and nerves so decided to stick to companion shows for a while as practice. I have seen improvement and he is certainly more settled than before.

I've also started a new ring craft class which is going better for us both than the previous one where the teacher had all but given up on us despite a lot of improvement - she suggested I find a professional handler but I really want to learn to handle him myself. We have also returned to reinforce basic training. At 14 months this seemed a good idea anyway.

Anyhow yesterday we went to a companion show and entered two classes. It was pouring with rain, the first class lasted 45 minutes and maybe I over did it but when the judge walked up to him in his second class he got spooked, reared back and barked repeatedly. She tried to go over him but he wasn't happy so we agreed to move further down the line. She then tried again and with lots of encourgement he was fine (except for the single bark at her back as she walked away!) He did bark at a judge once before, a couple of months back, again when he'd had enough.

My question is does anyone have any tips for this behaviour? Is it a case of continuing little and often with training? I really think this is all linked to nervous energy so do I need to accept that showing isn't his thing? Or am I over reacting? The judge yesterday was very understanding and we even got a 5th place rosette despite his little out burst!

I'm hoping those of you with experience will have some wise words or expertise to share. I don't want to give up as I enjoy it and most of the time so does Pebble - I think!

[JaspersMum]

Just one thought really, Companion shows often have a bigger entry and more chaotic than an Open show, the classes are likely to be smaller than some of the companions too... possible that the judges at an open may have more experience at dealing with a nervous dog too.    45 minutes is a big ask for even an experienced dog to stand around for.

Sorry that ringcraft classes haven't been able to help you sort the problem though, since that's why we go to classes in the first place and unless they think it's you being nervous thats going through to Pebbles, I'd want to stick to showing her yourself!  Can you ask general strangers you see out and about to make a fuss of her and treat her too.  It might help her being used to being gone over.  It must be really frightening for our smaller dogs when people bend over them and start prodding

[spanielcrazy]

. It was pouring with rain, the first class lasted 45 minutes and maybe I over did it but when the judge walked up to him in his second class he got spooked, reared back and barked repeatedly.

Was the judge wearing a raincoat with a hood or a hat? Sometimes this can be enough to throw a dog off. Also not all judges are very good on their first approach   

14 months can be a difficult age, especially for males. THey think they are "men" but actually haven"t developed the confidence yet.

At this point I'm of the "less is more" opinion when it comes to showing, as it can be so easy to sour them on it if you push too hard. What I think I would do is give him a bit of a break like you are doing, just occasional companion shows till he matures a bit mentally. For ringcraft, can you borrow a dog? Doesn't matter what kind, (doesn't even have to be purebred ) as long it is roughly the same size as a cocker. Alternate taking Pebble one week and the loaner dog the next.

Ringcraft is really more for honing your skills than for the dogs benefit, you can get just as much exposure to a wider variety of people just on walks or intoducing friends. You can stack him and have people "go over" him, then let them give him a treat.

 If you feel him start to do the "leaning tower of Piza" backward, you can put a firm but gentle hand on the top of his shoulder blades or just below the back of his skull to steady him ( and you will hopefully have taught "stay" or "steady")

You might also want to check out this:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Positive-Training-Show-Dogs-Relationship/dp/1929242468/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1275261851&sr=1-1

The most important thing? Learn to laugh--at him, at yourself, at all of it!  It will help both of you!

[6thSense]

Oh what a shame Pebbles had a bad experience, but I think as Jenny said that 45 mins is a very long time especially in the rain and bad weather for any dog. Even Tally who is usually really good apart from wanting to play with the next competitor if we wait for long in the que would get fed up waiting that long and he does get spooked if people come over to him wrong and as Spanielcrazy has said if the judge was wearing a big rain coat or hat that could easily have done it. Luckily most Open and Champ judges know what there doing when approaching a dog. Poss this may not have been the case at a companion show. I think a good Ringcraft class helps both you and your dog as both me and Tally new nothing when we started and would be nowhere without our Ringcraft. It teaches me basic Ringcraft and I get to meet lots of like minded people and get lots of advice and it teaches Tally how to be behave in the ring, different people going over him, male and female. How to relax in a hall with many other people and dogs in and to concentrate on the job whilst there. I think you can do some at home yourself of course, but I definitely think Ringcraft is an important part of training and still continues to be for me a Tally. He enjoys it to and enjoys seeing his friends and strutting his stuff each week.  I think it's a real shame that your Ringcraft seems to have given up on you and I would definitely be changing as I feel this is the time they should be there to help you as this is after all why their there. Maybe continue to train for a bit and then try another open show when you feel ready. You're prob to far to borrow Tally unfortunately.

[Brimbeck(Dyllan)]

Cockers and ringcraft mmmmmmmmmm
My baby messed about at ringcraft so much that I took him home and didn't go back for a while. I think people who don't have them expect too much from them at ringcraft. Leave it awhile, go to a different one if you can.

When I did go back the following month for the match night he won RBP, following month BP and the one after BP and Best in Match made me feel at lot better when the members with the "easier" dogs saw him win I can tell you 

My first boy (not bred to show), barked his head of at his first real show but he soon got better and does well now! You may find a local open show much better as there as usually less dogs and the judges know how to handle them.

[sarah phillips]

Thanks for your reassuring words everyone.

I thought going to companion shows would help but the judge's approach definately spooked him. She did have a big furry hood on her coat which may have been flapping about although I can't remember if it was actually up at the time - I don't think it was.

Pebble actually went the best he ever has for me in the first class so maybe he felt he had proved himself and wanted to go home to warm up.

I'll definately stick with the new class as they are really patient with us. Pebble got manhandled on one occassion, by the teacher, in the class we went to before so perhaps this has compounded his nerves? I also agree with Brimbeck that people don't always appreciate the finer qualities of Cockers and have written Pebble off as naughty or me as hopeless. (Both may be true of course but I don't think so we're just learning together! )

We can't go to our new ringcraft this week (and it wasn't on last week) so we'll be having a little break and then will try again.

Have any of your dogs got vocal in the ring? I know he got spooked but I want to avoid it becoming a habit or doing anything myself to make this more likely. I gently but firmly told him to quiet this time and then stood tall to try and reassure him that I wasn't concerned. Do you think this was an acceptable approach? It certainly seemed to calm him in the end.

[Brimbeck(Dyllan)]

Thanks for your reassuring words everyone.

I thought going to companion shows would help but the judge's approach definately spooked him. She did have a big furry hood on her coat which may have been flapping about although I can't remember if it was actually up at the time - I don't think it was.

Pebble actually went the best he ever has for me in the first class so maybe he felt he had proved himself and wanted to go home to warm up.

I'll definately stick with the new class as they are really patient with us. Pebble got manhandled on one occassion, by the teacher, in the class we went to before so perhaps this has compounded his nerves? I also agree with Brimbeck that people don't always appreciate the finer qualities of Cockers and have written Pebble off as naughty or me as hopeless. (Both may be true of course but I don't think so we're just learning together! )

We can't go to our new ringcraft this week (and it wasn't on last week) so we'll be having a little break and then will try again.

Have any of your dogs got vocal in the ring? I know he got spooked but I want to avoid it becoming a habit or doing anything myself to make this more likely. I gently but firmly told him to quiet this time and then stood tall to try and reassure him that I wasn't concerned. Do you think this was an acceptable approach? It certainly seemed to calm him in the end.

Sounds like you handled it really well, stick to your new ringcraft 

[elaine.e]

Louis, who will be a year old next week, has been a problem at Ringcraft and at our other training class as well. At his worst he barks a lot when he's doing nothing and rolls about on the floor almost like he's having a tantrum. He's also been reactive to one or two other dogs that have said hello to him, growling and air snapping, although he seems reasonably relaxed with most of the dogs.

At his best he's really good about being stacked, both on the floor and on the table, likes people going over him, trots up and down on a loose lead and free stands at the end But I'm never too sure which Louis is going to be with me, tantrum Louis or angelic Louis.

I find him quite a difficult dog to understand, but I've recognised that he's anxious in enclosed areas when he's on lead and when other dogs are nearby, so I've stopped going to Ringcraft and training on a regular basis and just take him along every so often. I'm not sure if that's the right thing to do, but it seems to have taken some of the pressure off him and he was more relaxed the last couple of times we went, which also meant I was more relaxed too.

I totally agree with Brimbeck that a lot of non Cocker people in showing expect too much of Cocker puppies and don't realise that some need a bit more time to get used to showing than some other breeds and that apparent naughtiness and excitability can be due to anxiety. Louis has been written off by a number of people at Ringcraft as being naughty and when I started agility with William and he was finding it hard to focus I was always being told "What do you expect, he's a Cocker" and written off before we'd got going.

I hope your perseverance pays off with Pebble. When I have a breakthrough moment with Louis it's just magical and makes up for the difficult days.

[sarah phillips]

Thanks Elaine.

'tantrum Louis or angelic Louis' I can relate to that    Can't help but love them though.

Pebble has been an angel when we practised in the garden this morning. So much better without that spooky judge around. 

[jennyspin]

This makes me think of our ringcraft the other week. Ebby was next in the ring to a man with a goldie. The man started to move the goldie down the mat and the goldie decided that he wouldn't do as he was told and would grab his owner's arm. The lady who was the "judge" charged down the mat and yelled at the dog to get off his owner. Poor Ebby was watching all of this from the table and when the "judge" came over to her next she was absolutely terrified! Obviously, the lady thought she was doing the man a favour but it scared little Ebby to death!

[SuperCat]

Murphy has been very 'difficult' to handle in the ring and generally and still is to a certain extent. We don't have any good ringcraft classes within easy reaching distance of where I live so I started my own! He has been great so far and in just two sessions he has progressed hugely. Before I started this ringcraft class we hadn't been to one since September but we had shown a few times. He is quite a showman and as long as he has his 'showing head' on he can be a really good boy in the ring and show off like a pro. In the time between ringcraft classes I have been concentrating on his obedience and have also started agility. I think the main reason for his huge improvement is firstly his AGE, he was 9 months in September, he is now 16 going-on 17 months, secondly his OBEDIENCE many showing people (not necessarily cocker people) have been quite shocked he does obedience classes (because he's still so naughty and because some of them believe it is detrimental to the 'show animal') I had one woman (actually the teacher of a ringcraft class around here) tell me that she never taught her dogs obedience and that if I wanted a show dog I was wasting her time and my money if I was going to do obedience and, god forbid, agility with him!!

So I would say, even though I am a novice too, give the showing a break for a while, try to keep at the ringcraft (just to keep your eye in), and really get going on your obedience training, maybe even try something new with him like agility. I struggled so much with Murphy until I went back to our obedience class, now he is more centred on me and is much easier to handle in all ways.