Red cocker spaniel rage gene.

[Jackie]

Hi I am new to this forum and just had to find a cocker spaniel forum to post about our problem.
Toby is our 15 week old (red) cocker spaniel puppy, we also have two other dogs, seven and eight, one being a blue roan cocker, the other being a X collie / springer. We have had absolutely no problems with raising our older dogs apart from the usual nipping and biting of bedding etc that all puppies do, however our new pup Toby has a very vicious streak in him, not all the time but particularly when picking him up, getting him ready for his walk, taking his harness, collar off etc, trying to retrieve something from his mouth that he brings in from the garden, all this goes far beyond the usual puppy behaviour. Last week he gave me such a bite on my hand that I had to have a Tetanus injection and was prescribed penicillin tablets although they were not needed in the end as although my hand still has some swelling and bruising, did not become infectious.
To cut a long story short, I am now very wary, even at times fearful of him, whenever he starts getting into his rage mode, I will not pick him up, even to put him back inside his cage if he is naughty, I still will not get him ready for walks, my OH (other half) has to do that for me, even he is fearful of him at times when he handles him.
We have only recently heard and read about solid blacks and red cocker spaniels having this so-called rage gene, my question is, do we keep him if he has it, I am 60 next week my OH 66 and do not want a wild animal in our pack, Toby has been put in his place by our other two dogs a few times but sometimes I feel he is fearless and wants to be top dog.
We start a course of clicker training /socialization next week, we tend to see that through, but our main concern is, if he has this gene rage, we both feel that no amount of training will calm him down, that he will take this into adulthood. I also want to state that until recently both of us had no Idea that red or black cockers can carry this gene, if we had of known this we would have had second thoughts on getting him, apart from all this we still have hope that he will turn out to be a lovable adult dog, and It would break our hearts to have to get rid of him ( re-home) but we may well have no choice in this matter, please advise.

[tillydog]

Genuine Rage is actually very rare. Have a search for other posts on this topic, as this will further help you.

Dont forget your pup is still a baby really. Hopefully someone else will come along who has more knowledge to advise you, but please take note that Rage is actually very rare.

[Karma]

As Tillydog says, genuine rage is incredibly rare, and red cockers are generally no more aggressive than any other colour... 

What you are describing is very common puppy behaviour - if you read some of the threads on the puppy board you will find many, many similar tales..

There seem to be several issues that need addressing here, so I'll try to seperate them.

1.  General puppy biting - you mentioned this in passing, in that the other biting goes beyond this - how are you dealing with it?  It is generally recommended to distract a pup with something they can bite, as biting is an important learning experience for pups.
2.  Picking him up - sorry, but the simple solution here is don't pick him up - he is telling you he doesn't like it.  If you need to move him regularly, you can attach a houseline, so you can guide him (combine this with a lure treat, so you are not dragging him).  A crate shouldn't be used as punishment, so he shouldn't be going in there when he is "naughty" - a crate should be somewhere fantastic, that he loves and wants to relax in. 
3. Putting on harness/collar - this is something a lot of pups struggle with.  Try using treats (if necessary make it a 2 person job - one person feeds treats while the other puts on the collar/harness etc.  In the meantime train a reliable wait - once this is solid, you can put one treat on the floor, ask him to wait, attach his collar/harness etc (while he is focussed on the treat) and then let him get the treat - we did this with Honey for months before she was entirely happy with being handled in this mannner.  You should also get him used to being handled in general - when he is calm and relaxed, gently lift and look at each ear and paw, giving him a treat for each - he will soon enjoy this, and it will make grooming/drying etc much less stressful.
4. Getting something from him - again, don't make it a confrontation, or you will create a dog who will either guard stuff from you, or will eat items to make sure you don't take them away.  When he approaches you with something in his mouth, tell him how fantastically clever he is (he's doing what he was bred to do - carry and retrieve), then get a treat and swap the item.  If it's something that isn't in any way dangerous for him to carry, let him carry it for a bit - then he won't learn that bringing you stuff leads to him losing it!  You can also, over time, train a reliable drop, so you won't always need to swap for a treat! 
5. Your other dogs - he is still just a pup and is going to push their buttons for a while - they will tell him when enough is enough, but he is unlikely to learn until he is a bit bigger.  Older dogs are generally very good with pups and will put them in their place as appropriate - unless your older dogs are really fed up, just let them tell him what is what.  However, once he is an adult, there is no guarantee what their heirarchy will be - if he is a forceful personality, he may become "top dog" among your dogs (many people find one dog is "top" in one situation, and another is "top" in another, so it's not a static thing) - again, unless there are major issues, you are best letting them sort this out themselves...

Hope this helps!!

[Holly Berry]

First of all welcome to COL  we are a very friendly bunch and I'm sure you will find lots of info and support on here to help you with Toby.

Rage syndrome is very rare and not just specific to cockers, so the chances of Toby having it is very remote. There are lots of threads on here about it. Just put Rage Syndrome into search.

What you describe is a puppy that has learnt that by biting and growling at you, you will stop trying to prevent him doing what he wants to do, ie get his own way. You say that you are starting clicker training soon, do you already use positive reinforcement with Toby? How do you use his cage, is it his safe place or for isolating him ie sleep, when you're going out and punishment? Does his harness go over his head? Rosie my tricolour hated having her harness put on as a puppy and would struggle and bite. She was my mothers dog and my uncle used to take her out. It became a battle everytime they went out, he was determined she wasn't going to win and so would manhandle her into her harness. The way we got round it was to hold the harness infront of her luring her through with a treat. We also changed the harness to the clip on type.

If he's naughty, remove yourself from him, walk out of the room, don't speak to him, just leave him to calm down. To be honest what you're your describing is confrontational behaviour by Toby and yourselves.  It's really not about him wanting to be topdog, like a child its about him wanting to do what he wants to do and seeing what he can get way with.

To get something off him, swop it for something better. Its the same as if you had a piece of cake and I suddenly came up to you told you to leave it and then put my hands in your mouth to retrieve it. How would that seem to you?

HTH and I'm sure others will be along soon with some more tips.

Would love to see some pictures of Toby.

[Nicola]

There is no 'rage gene' in solid coloured Cockers. True rage syndrome is very, very rare and actually quite little understood, some believe it to be a form of epilepsy. It can also affect any type of dog of any colour, it's not something that is just seen in solid coloured Cockers. It's true that years back some Cockers did display poor temperaments but this was mainly to do with over- and poor breeding and as red and black were very popular colours some of these badly bred dogs did have temperament issues (but not necessarily rage!). If you have got your puppy from a good breeder who breeds for temperament and health then you have little to worry about in this respect these days.

Unfortunately because of this association though things that in other breeds would be labelled as normal puppy biting/health issues/resource guarding etc. if they occur in a Cocker, particularly a solid coloured one, get mistakenly labelled as 'rage' when really they are not. Cockers are also not always the soft little dogs that their appearance may make people think, they can be stubborn and wilful and some can be very bitey and persistent puppies but it doesn't mean that they have rage. True 'rage-type' aggression will come completely out of the blue - the dog could be asleep and then suddenly attack - what you've described with your pup all seems to have particular triggers or confrontation points and with time, patience and the correct methods should all be very workable.

Regarding your pup, if you have a look on the 'Puppies' board here you will see a lot of threads posted by people worried that their puppies are abnormally bitey or 'aggressive'. It's true that some pups/dogs are more persistent and wilful than others, they will push the boundaries and some don't like confrontation - things like picking them up, taking items out of their mouths can be quite confrontational to a dog and some aren't comfortable with this and will tell you so the only way they can. I would try to perhaps be a little less hands-on with him; don't pick him up if he doesn't like it, use treats to swap for items that you don't want him to have, use treats to make him associate having his collar and harness put on and taken off with good things happening. Sometimes pups get overtired and can be very snappy, at these times it's best to not interact with them too much or try to pick them up etc. It's best to give him a time out and let him calm down. If you use a crate this should never be used to punish a puppy but you can use it as a safe place where he can go to get some peace and quiet and calm down if he needs it. Puppies need firm and consistent boundaries but it's best not to get into outright confrontations with them.

With your other dogs unless it's a major issue I would let them sort out their relationships themselves, they are much better at communicating with each other than we are! It's entirely possible that the youngest one may end up being 'top dog'. I have 3 working Cockers aged 6.5, 4 and 2 and it's the youngest one who is very much the boss dog. They all get on fine but since she was 9 or 10 months old the two older dogs have deferred to her on pretty much everything. She's also a solid red although she's a working type Cocker, she is a lovely dog with a fantastic temperament (she's in my avatar photo).

I started typing this ages ago but I'm at work, I would say that the previous posts pretty much cover what I've said!

[spanielmadhouse]

Hi and welcome from another newbie....

I've found your thread very interesting as what you have described is exactly the same as our rescue Cocker started life. We've had Louis for nearly a year, he's a blue roan show cross worker and is now nearly 18 months old.

His original owners from what I've been told struggled with all the things you have described and he took all his temper tantrums and teeth (!) out on his female owner. They too were a similar age and had previously owned dogs so were also experienced but struggled with Lou. Lou picked up on this and quickly learnt that they were afraid of him which he used to his advantage and used his teeth and their fear of him to get his own way.

He too hated having his collar touched/lead being put on and it became a battle. Ditto with being picked up

As others have said, true rage is very rare, however Lou is a confident, forward dog and was (is!) confrontational. He's wilful and likes to have his own way!

You'll know by the word rescue and the fact that he's with me now that they decided to let him go. One of the bravest things that they could have done for him as yes he is a handful and he has bitten me a few times but he's a work in progress, is a lovable, eager little dog and has lots to give and I think he's worth the work. He has however learnt that confrontation and teeth worked so we've had to work on this and reinforce all his good behaviours. I'm sure that if they had received all the info that others have already provided here then the outcome would have been different and he would have stayed with them as he was only the same age as Toby and it is workable, he's still a baby.

Lou is our third cocker and our 2 year old George whilst biddable now could also be a horror at Toby's age, also liked to use his teeth and would be quite 'in your face' and wouldn't back down, my hand seemed to always have puppy marks on it! We worked on it though and he however calmed down and now at 2 is a lovely dog, one I wouldn't be without.

Good luck with Toby

[PennyB]

We once had a blue roan cocker puppy who managed to get her teeth on my 12 year old sister's ear and ripped it - she cried all the way to A&E because she didn't want my mum to put her to sleep (even thuogh she was in pain herself)

I also once fostered a very confident 17 week old blue roan cocker who had been owned by 1st time owners and because of his confidence they felt out of their depth - true he wasn't an easy puppy but he also wasn't a bad puppy either. He also drew blood on me on a couple of occasions when he was pushing his luck.

There is plenty of good advice on here and please put this idea of rage at the back of your mind so you can move on with your pup.

Pups need clear boundaries + they also need heaps of patience and positive training. If in doubt walk away from him sometimes for a couple of minutes.

The boys I find (ones I've fostered anyway) can be a bit full on as well - lots of short training exercises can help if only to refocus his teeth and keep his brain occupied but keep them short and fun - at his age you will have to repeat a lot of things as he has a small lemmony brain. Doesn't matter what you train him for as long as it stimulates the right bits of his brain. Some games are also good ways to train them.

[fifer]

PLEASE listen to the excellent advise you have been given on this thread by Karma, Nicola and PennyB.  As someone who rehabs cockers and just yesterday heard of a dog who was due to come in for rehab being PTS for "rage".  I am just so cut up about it.  Rage is so rare most vets and few behaviourists have ever seen one case of it, never mind 2 in one day like the vet yesterday claimed (or so the owner said) 

Karma has given you excellent advice - be guided by it.

BUT if you feel you do not have the breed experience necessary to deal with this lad (who may well be a very 'difficult' pup but he is still just a pup) and you do decide to rehome contact a responsible rescue who can deal with "stroppy" cockers.  Sorry if I've come across as harsh and umsympathetic but I really don't want to see another dog PTS for no good reason. 

[Hurtwood Dogs]

 

Hi Jackie, welcome to the forum. You've had some very good advice and I agree with everything that's been said

All I'll add is that I know what a shock it is having a horror pup after a normal one.. my horror pup was a blue roan and very different to the very sweet solid gold cocker I'd owned previously

We were all bitten and attacked relentlessly until he was about 9 months old. He guarded toys and food ferociously and bit my sons legs until they bled.. If we ever said 'No' to him he screamed and attacked us again - you get the picture

The techniques Karma has detailed above for you do work and it's so important with a dog/pup that doesn't like confrontation and/or is prone to guarding to avoid anything that makes them uncomfortable and lead or lure them then reward them My horror pup has grown into a wonderful adult dog that doesn't guard his food anymore and my children can happily ask him to give up toys etc with no problem (we spent ages swapping toys for tasty treats and praising him like mad and he loves giving us things now ).

It's a frustrating few months but if you're happy to learn how to handle him differently to the others and 'up your game' so to speak I'm more than sure you'll end up with a wonderful adult dog that totally trusts you and that you can trust too. 

[mark1]

Another one here who agrees with the good advice you have got previously. If I have learnt anything from keeping dogs it is that there is no one size fits all and it can be depressing and worrying when you compare one puppies behaviour directly with another. I am sure if you follow the advice you will come out the other end with a lovely dog, keep going it's worth it. good luck

[6thSense]

Some FAB advice here and no real need for me to add much to it. Only to say I have 6 cockers. 2 golds, 1 red, 2 blacks and 1 blue roan and the most issues I have are with the blue roan and I would never label it rage. I also had a gold cocker in the past that had many behavioural problems and was frequently labelled as having rage, but this was never the case. He was a rescue and all his problems stemmed from this and there were always triggers to his behaviours. He became a lovely boy who I loved to peaces. True rage which like others have said is extremely rare if it even exists at all anymore. PLEASE listen to all this fab advice on here. He sounds like a handful, but they all have very different characters I know mine do and my red boy is my star. 

[Black Red + Yellow]

Fantastic posts people

Owner of a Gold boy here who is a soppy soppy monster.

[puddsmum]

I would agree what the others have already said, but just to add that maybe you've forgotten just what hard work puppies can be at times, given that your other dogs are now 7 & 8.  A lady near me, in her 60's, lost her 17yr old golden retriever a couple of years ago, & feeling a bit lost without a dog, a few months later got a cocker puppy.  She said she'd forgotten just how tiring & at times frustrating bringing up a puppy can be, especially she said, as she'd been nearly 20yrs younger when she'd done it previously!!
Also, if you already have a well behaved cocker, getting a 'naughty' one can be a bit of a shock.  Roly, my blue roan is so laid back & loves everybody, so getting a stroppy, obsessive, resource guarding Barkley was a bit of an eye opener to say the least, but he's loads better than when I first got him from his previous owners, altho every now & again he takes it into his head to challenge my daughter (she's 28!), so he gets sent away to sit on his own at either the other end of the room, or in the other room, where he obviously sits & ponders where it all went wrong, & calms down!
Also having a 'mouthy' sprocker, I've found nylabones a godsend - shoving that into her mouth to chew on instead of us helped alot - folding your arms & igoring her didn't work all that well with her, as she then took to pulling on clothes!! 

Your pup could also be teething which won't help the biting situation!  good luck

[Jackie]

Thank you all for your positive responses and very good advice, your feedback has lifted our spirits.
We do distract Toby by using one of his toys, we tend to leave some toys permanently on the floor and try to tempt him away from our slippers, shoe laces, trouser legs etc with one, we have not used treats to tempt him yet, but will definitely give that a try, particularly when putting on his collar/harness. I do understand how he must feel every time we come towards him with the harness ready to force it over his head, I know I would react to it myself, so maybe we should try an alternative, perhaps a step-in.
Yes we do or rather I used to pick him up, I've tried to treat him the same way as my other two (Benji and Megan) the same way they were treated as pups, also the same way I brought up my late 15 year old dog Petra that I lost two years ago, but now I see we need to work on him differently.
He is forever bringing moss or soil in from the garden, the only thing he doesn't seem interested in doing in the garden is his toilet. Where once I would have not hesitated in picking him up and to prise his mouth open to retrieve it (this was when he bit me) I have now learnt my lesson. I have also learnt not to play chase to take it from his mouth, but I do now cringe when I find myself standing back and have to watch/hear him crunching on something undesirable.
I find my self to blame to some extent, I promised My Benji a playmate and used to urge the two to play tug/pulley, but now I realise that that only spurs on his aggression and I guess dominance, so I do not encourage that anymore, which is a shame, maybe later when he is a little older.
We use his cage part for night time sleeping part for punishment/part for rest period when we know he has had his play, had his feed, had his walk etc, I use that time as "me time" so I can relax and get on with what I need to do. We do tend to leave the cage door open, but rarely does he enter it of his own accord, but always closed the door once in.
We brought Toby home at seven weeks old, we purchased him from a reputable "hobby" cocker spaniel breeder of six show-dogs, not working dogs, but we never met the father "stud" which is making me wonder about his temperament, the mother seemed calm the couple of times we saw her.
Yes I do now believe it all comes down to Toby not liking to be "man handled" I also have to be careful now when taking him for walks that young school children dont over excite him as he is quite boisterous and jumps up, but one of my main worries is that he may bite a child, as they dont see what we see, he is just this cute little puppy, and most times that's just what he is. So now I tend to walk him after 9.30 am or after 4.30 pm to avoid this.
Yes I do think that I've forgotten what hard work rearing new pups can be, it all came so easy and naturally seven and eight years ago, there is only seven months between Megan and Benji and we also had Petra who was then around the age of nine herself, but apart from the usual puppy problems, Megan had worms and Benji ripped almost every piece of bedding that we bought for him.
You have all given such good advice, I am so glad I found this site and  thank you all for my warm welcome, I can only apologise if I have not responded to everyone's questions.

[Nicola]

He is forever bringing moss or soil in from the garden, the only thing he doesn't seem interested in doing in the garden is his toilet. Where once I would have not hesitated in picking him up and to prise his mouth open to retrieve it (this was when he bit me) I have now learnt my lesson. I have also learnt not to play chase to take it from his mouth, but I do now cringe when I find myself standing back and have to watch/hear him crunching on something undesirable.

Try using a treat (or a favourite toy) to tempt him to swap for what he has in his mouth so it's a positive experience for him because he's getting something better rather than just having his prize taken away. You can then start building this up to work on a solid 'drop' or 'give' command.

Try not to use the crate as a punishment, it's fine to put him in there to wind down and to let you get on with things for a while. If you leave him with a chew or a stuffed Kong it will keep him occupied and build a good association with the crate for him.

I'm glad you feel more positive about things, do have a look back through the threads on the Puppies board, you'll see that a lot of these issues are fairly common and they are definitely not insurmountable. It sounds like you know the kind of things you need to do and I'm sure you'll end up with a very nice boy once he's grown up a bit