Author Topic: Urgent help  (Read 8683 times)

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Offline Top Barks

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Re: Urgent help
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2011, 07:59:25 PM »
The mouthing is really saying she doen't like it Chris ;)
but turning it into a game is not a bad way of changing her reponse

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
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Offline SteveB

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Re: Urgent help
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2011, 08:01:34 PM »
I look to the reason for the growl and work with the dog to either learn another response or negate the need to growl.  If you ignore a growl and carry on regardless, it runs the risk of escalating the behaviour.
Or the dog learns that it has nothing to fear.
Surely if you let the dog get away with it as some of the advice on this thread seems to be saying. It knows by being aggresive it can do anything it wants and all the problems that can bring.

Offline Top Barks

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Re: Urgent help
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2011, 08:12:47 PM »
I look to the reason for the growl and work with the dog to either learn another response or negate the need to growl.  If you ignore a growl and carry on regardless, it runs the risk of escalating the behaviour.
Or the dog learns that it has nothing to fear.
Surely if you let the dog get away with it as some of the advice on this thread seems to be saying. It knows by being aggresive it can do anything it wants and all the problems that can bring.

If letting the dog get away with it in the short term prevents the owner being bitten then yes let it get away with it. As I'm trying to say Steve, if you are unsure what the dog will do to follow up the growling then one must err on the side of caution otherwise someone might get hurt. Surely putting managment in place so the dog is not put in that position again alongside a training programme designed for the individual dog and owner is the responsible way to go and is what i would advise in many cases. in all cases in my job, I have to advise a method that will keep people from harm.
You still have not answered my question, what would you do specifically to a dog that growls at you that you are a stranger too? get in there and risk being chomped to prove you are the boss? We sometimes act in the moment when stepping back and taking a longer term view might be more appropriate, yes if you steam in to assert yourself ,you might get lucky, there was a client I went to see last week with a cocker with very bad injuries from a dog who gave no warning, so let's stop the dog giving a warning and just advance straight to the bite instead?

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline Top Barks

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Re: Urgent help
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2011, 08:45:10 PM »
I'll throw this open to the board, what would you do?


Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline SteveB

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Re: Urgent help
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2011, 09:04:20 PM »
The dog in question is only a pup. Would follow what you are saying on an older dog as you do not know how he would react. But surely you would know your own dog. As you say your dog has growled at you while cleaning paws, you know your dog and understand it but to somebody who does not know your dogs how would they feel.  But what some people on here were saying was leave it alone fullstop and let him get on with it. My mother inlaw has a rough collie and he has become dominant in the household with her. He barks to demand food off her plate (which she gives him) he shreds the mail in front of her and he has bitten her (she says he didnt mean to it was an accident etc), gets in the car and does not stop barking until he gets where he is going, barks when the phone rings and takes a while to stop, this is what happens I believe if you do not confront the problem. Both Andrea and I have both worked with him (for my sins my mil lives across the road)and when we have been with him none of the above happens. So why do you think that happens.
Like you I have been involved with dogs for most of my life and personally had 12 dogs (scary thought) Rough Collie, Boxer, 2 heinz 57(both rescues), 4 GSD's (2 were rescues), Scottish Terrier (she used to grumble at the cats when they got in her bed with her but the cats just ignored her),Lurcher (rescue), 2 Cockers and have never had a problem with food dominance, all our dogs are always fed at the same times in the same room and all you can hear is bowls scraping across the floor.
I am no expert and do not profess to be, only relating what works for us. We have been quite succesful with the Cockers in competion and are being asked continually to attend different shoots. We were also asked to attend Crufts as part of a team with the GSD's for an exhibition. We do help with other peoples dogs but voluntarily and not with behaviour issues just with training.

Offline Helen

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Re: Urgent help
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2011, 09:28:19 PM »
I have to ask the reasons as to why you have classed these behaviours as 'dominance'? ( a theory which has been thoroughly debunked btw)

Barking to demand food
Shredding mail
Barking at the phone
Barking in the car

As for the biting - was she trying to take something off the dog?

helen & jarvis x


Offline SteveB

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Re: Urgent help
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2011, 09:35:38 PM »
The mail and not once.
What would you say was the reason for it, and why does he not do it when Andrea or me are there?

Offline Sarah.H

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Re: Urgent help
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2011, 09:39:47 PM »
I know when Millie first growled at my OH I completely over reacted and thought it was the most heinous thing EVER! Ok a slight exaggeration, but I was very shocked and upset  :'(. Since then I have learnt why she does what she does and that most of the time it's not her fault  ;).

My approach to Millie is to praise her for bringing me things and swapping for treats. I let her 'win' games so she can run off with her toy. My OH used to just prise stuff out of her mouth and she would never trust him to take a toy to for a play ;), it was quite funny to watch her stand just out of reach and move her head away just enough every time he tried to take it  :005:.

Millie

Offline Top Barks

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Re: Urgent help
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2011, 09:48:03 PM »
The dog in question is only a pup. Would follow what you are saying on an older dog as you do not know how he would react. But surely you would know your own dog. As you say your dog has growled at you while cleaning paws, you know your dog and understand it but to somebody who does not know your dogs how would they feel.  But what some people on here were saying was leave it alone fullstop and let him get on with it. My mother in law has a rough collie and he has become dominant in the household with her. He barks to demand food off her plate (which she gives him) he shreds the mail in front of her and he has bitten her (she says he didn't mean to it was an accident etc), gets in the car and does not stop barking until he gets where he is going, barks when the phone rings and takes a while to stop, this is what happens I believe if you do not confront the problem. Both Andrea and I have both worked with him (for my sins my mil lives across the road)and when we have been with him none of the above happens. So why do you think that happens.
Like you I have been involved with dogs for most of my life and personally had 12 dogs (scary thought) Rough Collie, Boxer, 2 heinz 57(both rescues), 4 GSD's (2 were rescues), Scottish Terrier (she used to grumble at the cats when they got in her bed with her but the cats just ignored her),Lurcher (rescue), 2 Cockers and have never had a problem with food dominance, all our dogs are always fed at the same times in the same room and all you can hear is bowls scraping across the floor.
I am no expert and do not profess to be, only relating what works for us. We have been quite succesful with the Cockers in competion and are being asked continually to attend different shoots. We were also asked to attend Crufts as part of a team with the GSD's for an exhibition. We do help with other peoples dogs but voluntarily and not with behaviour issues just with training.

Firstly, i wouldn't let any one who didn't know Alfie dry his paws so would never put anyone in that situation so that really makes your question irrelevant, you still haven't answered mine by the way! With regard to this being a pup, well pups still bite Steve so yes I would treat any dog i didn't know with caution.  Rather than posts that advised doing nothing, I only saw posts that directed people away from direct confrontation and I think I have made my feelings clear on what the OP should do.
The behaviour you are describing with regard to the collie sounds to me the symptoms of a lack of training and stimulation. I do believe you have to tackle problems, but in my world, that means using methods that do not put folks at risk of being bitten, and this often requires planning. The dog barks for food because it works and rips up stuff probably because it has learned it gets a reaction from your mother in law? I would be looking at what training and stimulation your mother in law does with the dog?
I do believe behaviour can be person specific and I do believe that dogs will behave in a manner that is inappropriate if the person handling the dog allows the dog to do so if that is your definition of dominance then so be it. Personally I would say rather than dominant under trained and badly handled. I blame the owner not the dog for allowing the dog to take the opportunities on offer.
I'm glad what you do works for you, but hope you will take on board my point that just because it works for one dog in one family does not mean you can advise successfully on another dog who is unknown to you who you know little about.
There is no one size fits all approach to dog behaviour modification, if there was I would be out of a job as every one would know exactly what to do and it would work 100% of the time with every dog.
Thanks for your resume by the way, i don't shoot so am never invited, never taken a dog to crufts to be part of a display team, but i do work with dog behaviour problems for a living and am just about to qualify with a BSc Hons in canine behaviour so hopefully that does make me as you would say an expert :lol: :lol:

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline Helen

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Re: Urgent help
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2011, 09:49:37 PM »
The mail and not once.
What would you say was the reason for it, and why does he not do it when Andrea or me are there?

If you're saying that he bit her because she took the mail away from the dog it brings us back to resource guarding....

It's not dominance - many dogs like shredding the mail, it's fun for the dog and a habit he/she's got into and your mother's reaction when taking the mail off the dog is turning it into a resource battle.   Personally I would get a mail guard for the letter box and not let the dog in the room when the mail is delivered so the excitement is completely gone.

What was your method of stopping the dog doing it?  
helen & jarvis x


Offline Top Barks

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Re: Urgent help
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2011, 09:53:23 PM »
The mail and not once.
What would you say was the reason for it, and why does he not do it when Andrea or me are there?

If you're saying that he bit her because she took the mail away from the dog it brings us back to resource guarding....

It's not dominance - many dogs like shredding the mail, it's fun for the dog and a habit he/she's got into and your mother's reaction when taking the mail off the dog is turning it into a resource battle.   Personally I would get a mail guard for the letter box and not let the dog in the room when the mail is delivered so the excitement is completely gone.

What was your method of stopping the dog doing it?  

come on Steve that's two of us asking for your magic formula which I'm sure does work for you, but why?

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline SteveB

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Re: Urgent help
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2011, 09:55:48 PM »
The mail and not once.
What would you say was the reason for it, and why does he not do it when Andrea or me are there?

If you're saying that he bit her because she took the mail away from the dog it brings us back to resource guarding....

It's not dominance - many dogs like shredding the mail, it's fun for the dog and a habit he/she's got into and your mother's reaction when taking the mail off the dog is turning it into a resource battle.   Personally I would get a mail guard for the letter box and not let the dog in the room when the mail is delivered so the excitement is completely gone.

What was your method of stopping the dog doing it?  
No method just does not do it when we are there.

Offline Top Barks

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Re: Urgent help
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2011, 09:56:32 PM »
why do you think that is Steve?
Would love you to answer my question too :D

Mark Sanderson BSc Hons (canine behaviour), FdSc CBT, CAP 1, CAP 2
Member of The Association Of Pet Dog Trainers (00977)
 
Check out my website http://www.topbarks.co.uk/  www.yorkdogtrainer.co.uk

Offline SteveB

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Re: Urgent help
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2011, 10:04:08 PM »
TB have just gone back through my postings on here and cannot find anywhere that had advised her on what to do, all I have stated is my own experiences.
As I also stated I am not involved in dog behaviour only in training.
Also I do not shoot just enjoy watching my dogs working and working with them.

Congratulations on your qualifications.
As it now proves you are the expert and I am not as I stated  

Offline SteveB

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Re: Urgent help
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2011, 10:07:08 PM »
why do you think that is Steve?
You tell me your the expert
Would love you to answer my question too :D
I thought I had answered it twice above
at 8.01 and 9.04