Dominant puppy?

[dap]

Hello all,

Have looked at a number of threads on aggressive / challenging behaviour and would appreciate some more advice / clarification.

Mostyn in 13 weeks and in the last week has started growling and has attempted to bite both of us quite aggressively a number of times.  One biting attempt was witnessed during puppy class and the trainer suggested I hold him by the scruff of the neck for a few seconds and then ignore him for a couple of minutes.  I have tired this since (an hate doing it by the way) but it seems to frigten him and make him worse.  I also tried to put him in the downstairs toilet (time out room) but can't get him in there without picking up and I can't pick him up whist he's like this as he just makes more attempts to bite me. 

He is our first puppy and adorable most of the time but it's worrying both of us as we want a happy dog which we can trust and who isn't frightened of us, but knows his place in the pack.

Had a really bad episode last night which left us both feeling horrid.  He attempted to bite my husband and then two minutes later me.  We eventually got him to the downstairs loo for about 30 seconds (although this felt like and age) and the poor thing weed in there, from the distress I suspect. 

I think we will try and walk away and leave him next time and see if that works, seems to be the popular suggestion on other threads.

Any other helpful hints anyone? 

[Mari]

Other people in here can probably give much better and more experienced advise. But your puppie is so young, I would not want to scare him more, there is a fine line between fear and aggression. I would prefer to yelp/scream and walk away if he bites. So he understands that it is painful! Are you sure it is really aggression? He just seems too young. And puppies can bite quite hard when they haven't learned to control it. And they growl as much when they play or express fear or displeasure, it is not necessarily a threat.

[Helen]

am really surprised your trainer suggested this, poor Mostyn   If this (and the pack theory) is the method of training they are promoting then I would seriously think about changing puppy classes.

By scruffing him and frightening him like this you are enhancing his fear, and of course he will respond by trying to bite you out of sheer fright - that's the only way he knows how to communicate.  I agree fully with Mari's post, and her suggestion of time out, and the 'OWW!!' is a much better idea.  It sounds like the bathroom is just making him worse, for a pup to defaecate in fear is really sad  Does he have a crate or am area that he can be put in (that is not scary) for a time out? 

He is really still such a baby, and hasn't learnt about bite inhibition properly yet - I wouldn't call this aggressive behaviour, just snappy turtle puppy behaviour, and yes it can really hurt!  If you do think it's more than that please contact a behaviourist who will be able to see how and why Mostyn reacts - it will really help your relationship with Mostyn

[Hurtwood Dogs]

am really surprised your trainer suggested this, poor Mostyn   If this (and the pack theory) is the method of training they are promoting then I would seriously think about changing puppy classes.

By scruffing him and frightening him like this you are enhancing his fear, and of course he will respond by trying to bite you out of sheer fright - that's the only way he knows how to communicate.  I agree fully with Mari's post, and her suggestion of time out, and the 'OWW!!' is a much better idea.  It sounds like the bathroom is just making him worse, for a pup to defaecate in fear is really sad  Does he have a crate or am area that he can be put in (that is not scary) for a time out? 

He is really still such a baby, and hasn't learnt about bite inhibition properly yet - I wouldn't call this aggressive behaviour, just snappy turtle puppy behaviour, and yes it can really hurt!  If you do think it's more than that please contact a behaviourist who will be able to see how and why Mostyn reacts - it will really help your relationship with Mostyn

Totally agree with Livercake... my pup is nearly 15 weeks now and has displayed the same behaviour as your pup loads since he was 8 weeks, sometimes in a very determined way. He's my second pup though so I'm not worried.. it's what puppies do. Some are less bitey some are more so. I would seriously consider changing trainers too.. reward is much better for them and you might cause more problems by trying to dominate him or show him his 'place in the pack'.

You want a relationship with your dog where he respects you not fears you. I make time for Dave with positive play, if he's biting I say 'ah ah' sharply and the second he stops I reward him with praise - his little face lights up as they do want to please. But pups have a short concentration span and you have to keep going with this for a long time. I also make sure he gets lots of quiet time away from my 4 yr old son. So I have a babygate type effect - when we're doing other things Dave has the run of the kitchen and garden and can see us but we don't have him with us the whole time as it tends to get too excited - I will remove this gate once he is through this phase (probably about 5 months or so). It all takes time and is hardwork and frustrating sometimes but gentle positive reward is by far the safest way to make sure you have a great relationship with your dog...

Hannah x

[cazza]

Agree with Livercake 

Can i just add tho .............  can you check your puppy training class teacher is on the ADPT site (can someone find the site for me please as I'm hopless with links  )

If they are not then try and locate one on the site near you 

ooops - no wonder I couldn't find it thanks Livercake   It's apdt not as I put adpt 

[Helen]

here you go
http://www.apdt.co.uk/about.htm

[Top Barks]

please don't scruff your dog and maybe find another puppy class
This is a sure fire way to scare your pup at this very important and impressionable age.
with regard to moving him around then why not use a houseline.
I would not be wanting to try and assert your authority to much at this age by manhandling your pup.
Hannah's (Trevor) way of dealing with this is my preferred option.
Just be clear and above all consistent with your groundrules and your pup will find his place in your family.
Don't get caught up in thinking you are his pack as you are not dogs and cannot communicate like one so just be humans and learn about what makes your dog tick.
The better understanding you get of your new friend the better your relationship will become.
Mark

[dap]

I feel like a really bad mum now, my poor little Mostyn.  

We love him lots and just want the best for us all, this puppy stuff is so new and am really glad of this website for support.

Will check out my trainer too.

Thank you for the advice.

[caro]

Don't feel bad, you would expect to trust the trainer, but I think in this instance they are wrong.  13 weeks (in my opinion) is too young for the pup to know what is what.  I don't think we started training (at a class) until Fern was 4 months or it could even have been later - even then its difficult because everything is so exciting!  Fern used to be bitey (as they are) and we used the OWWW approach too.  I think when she was really bad, when playing say, we would stop playing.  She got a sharp NO quite often if she did something really naughty, but that's about as far as it went!

[september]

Roxy is a very bitey puppy, I have the hands to prove it.  We say no sharply if she bites and if she then repeats it we quickly pick her up and put her in the kitchen for a few seconds as a time out. 

This is seeming to work as she is improving.  When she plays she can get very excited and then bites more, when she does this we make sure she has a toy so you don't have to touch her with your hands, you can play with her using the toy or leave her with her toy to play on her own, returning to her in a few minutes, giving her time to calm down.  She is getting better at this to.

I'm no expert by any means! Just sharing what works! I use advice from here and the 'perfect puppy' book.

At our puppy class our trainer advised people not to say no because puppy doesn't understand and to just ignore it.  I didn't really think this would work for us so we carried on using no. Which we do feel works!

[caro]

We used the perfect puppy book as well !

[PennyB]

I agree with above re using positive methods. Ruby was a very confident pup at this age and was a demon biter (mind you I've had subsequent foster pups of different breeds who have been even worse than she was). We got through it all with patience and positive training

[Mari]

I agree, don't feel bad. It is not easy to know who's right and what training methods are the best. That's why this forum is so great, we can ask advise from people who really know the breed. Now you know what to do next time it happens.
When I got my puppie I read a bunch of books on dog training and quickly desided that I would never use punishment. And I would base all my training on positive reinforcement. If you find a good book on raising puppies, you'll feel much more relaxed as you will know what to expect from them at different stages.
Of course finding the right trainer and the right books are not allways easy. That's why I allways ask friends with dogs or post questions in here.

Good luck and enjoy your puppie!

[Linz13]

Maddi liked a bite! TBH I thought she had been crossed with a crocodile!

I went for a loud OUCH! This worked very well and stopped it within 7-10 days!

[pinkcarys]

Griffin seems quite laid back but had a week or two where I was at my wits end. If he got excited/tired/hungry he would turn into a crocodile. If he could get at my hands or ankles he would or if not he'd snap at the thin air. Looking back it wasn't aggressive, just over excitement but it was scary.  We dealt with it by doing the usual "Eeeeek!" when he bit then turning our back on him until he calmed down. Unfortunately its vey hard to ignore needle sharp teeth taking chunks out of your leg so we resorted to leaving the room until he stopped growling. He understood very quickly that teeth out=fun time over. It wasn't a punishment as such just ceasing playtime.